Posted on Nov 23, 2013
SGM Matthew Quick
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Should a 4 year degree be a requirement for selection to e 9
With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate&nbsp;<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px; white-space: nowrap;">degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</span>
Posted in these groups: Graduation cap Education5a9f5691 College
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GySgt (Other / Not listed)
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Yes, only if the 4-year degree is in war fighting, killing bodies, and leadership.  All other majors is unnecessary! 
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GySgt (Other / Not listed)
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12 y
Our current war fighting strategies involve those non-kinetics. For those who have served in our recent conflicts, you would know too well that its not just killing the enemy that counts.
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CPO Thomas Robinson
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NO !  I've read a lot of pros and cons on this, so here's my opinion.  I came in the Navy in '71 with an Associates Degree, A&P License and several years experience on aircraft. I CHOSE to go enlisted, stayed enlisted, and retired enlisted with 21.5 years, finally obtained a BS Degree in Aeronautical Engineering, A&P and IA and close to 14 RELATED schools while in the Navy.  ALL of that helped me, but NONE of that would have made me a better E-9 (Ret'd Chief).  It does help in seeing things in a different light, but the fact that a degree will make you a better person is crap !  I've had Officers with a BA in Marine Biology come in and fly aircraft.  I'm not saying they were not qualified, but I do say if you are going to fly an aircraft, then have a degree in something related, same with the enlisted.  A degree in anything will give a person an advantage in the process of learning. I had several opportunities to go the Officer route.  Just wasn't for me. Nothing wrong with that, just wasn't my style. So in my opinion for whatever a retiree's opinion is worth, NO, on the requirement !
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SGM Operations Sergeant Major
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I entered in 1979, but the service is much, much different now.
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SFC Behavioral Health Specialist
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I do not think it should be a formal requirement.  I do believe it will become a standard that we set for ourselves in the future.  There are many different avenues available today for Soldiers to seek a degree.  Some of those options require us to think outside of the box and may not include a brick and mortar option for some.  I am a big fan online program from accredited schools.  Things really changed for me in 2002 when the Army brought in EArmyU.  Prior to that I had to withdraw from a lot of courses due to mission.  I was able to take cases at my own pass online through CTC so if I had a mission that would prevent me from going to class it did not equate to automatically withdrawing from that class.  This was also a benefit for me because I did not have to rush home, change and then head right back out the door to get to class. 


I could see some sort of system where an associates degree (or 60 SH) is required for selection.  I could then see some possibility where USASMA affiliates with a university system that validates the curriculum, extend the course to 52 weeks and a BS in Military Science is conferred upon completion of the course.


I definitely believe a BA or BS should be required for selection to certain nominative positions!

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CW3 Maintenance Test Pilot
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I have to vote a strong yes. As a young soldier and as a junior NCO I heard it stressed time and time again that we needed to constantly better ourselves. To pursue further military and civilian education. While a degree may not necessarily make you a better leader, obtaining an education will help to shape you into a more rounded leader. It also sets the example for those you wish to lead. For how can you tell the soldiers they should pursue an education and utilize the Army programs if you have not yourself? Completing your degree while enlisted is tough, I understand that because I started as a PV2 and didn't complete my degree until I was a SSG. But when you achieve a B.A. or a B.S. it demonstrates to your junior NCOs that you have the perseverance, the know how, and the ability to multitask on and off duty to accomplish such a feat.

 

Furthermore, whether a degree is "necessary" or not while in the military, by the time you are "rounding third base" and on the home stretch of your career, it would just be a more wise decision to possess an advanced degree. With the amount of veterans that will began to transition out of the military and into the civilian job market over the next few years, simply being a veteran isn't going to hold much weight as it may have in the past.

 

Here is an article from 2012 which stresses employers who are seeking military veterans WITH a degree.

http://thevalueofaveteran.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bachelors-degree-vs-military-experience-why-do-employers-view-one-as-less-valuable/

 

When I was a recruiter I remember the Air Force recruiter posting the statistics for enlisted degree completion amongst the different services. It was a low blow but they had reason to be proud. The Air Force does a much better job at promoting college completion from within its own ranks. While true, they may not have been as mission saturated as the Army over the past 12 years, they've still got those numbers to stand behind. Which draws in more young people who have college minded goals on their agenda when comparing services.

http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp

 

I would urge anyone interested in pursuing college to do it and do it as now. Even if you must nickel and dime classes in between deployments. It can be done, but the longer you wait, the more likely you are to see our college benefits and TA reduced and/or cut. Such as the Alaract 317/2013 message which will reduce TA from $4500 a year to $4000.

http://langea.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/ALARACT-3172013-FY14-Tuition-Assistance-Policy.pdf

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SFC 1st Sergeant
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I've been following this thread for awhile and noticed a few of things. Many of those that have a 4 year degree, think its a great idea. Most of those are in career fields that allow you to have the time to pursue a degree. Hence they desire to be promoted, so they want this requirement. 

I suppose we could make it mandatory to be a E-9 you have a Purple Heart and a Ranger Tab. How many would be up for that? 


When I was a much younger man on active duty, I was young Paratrooper and the only schools I was interested in was Ranger, Jumpmaster, Sniper, SERE etc. Because thats what my leaders and role models were. It was encouraged to go.


The op-tempo of a Combat Arms soldier even in peacetime precludes studying for a degree. Between Mission Cycle, Co., Plt. Sqd. individual training, JRTC, NTC, advanced schooling, Support Cycle. Thats not counting the op-tempo since 9-11. Multiple combat deployments with train-ups in-between have been norm for over a decade.



I have a BS in History and I graduated with a 3.0. No way in hell I could have done it on active duty. The way I learned my extra language skills was by living among those people that spoke it and a bunch of tapes.



I'm all for education, the greatest NCO I ever knew told me "You never stop learning, you can learn something from anyone…even fools". 



I have also noticed several people in their posts saying how a 4 year degree prepares that NCO for the civilian world. It does, but if you are E-9, you have dedicated your life to the "Profession of Arms". I'm pretty sure having a 4 year degree on your resume is not going to make that much of a difference. 



I spent a good part of the last 10 years working among many, many, Ivy League grads, the best and brightest the State Dept. could send to the middle east. They were F$%^&*G horrible, out-of-touch and mostly naive fools. Which is why we have our current foreign policy. 



Bluntly most degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on. Unless they are in hard sciences and or backed by a QBE. Thats "Qualified By Experience"!



I don't want a SGM with a degree. I want a SGM, who loves his soldiers (granted its tough love), who advises his commander well, who enjoys removing the "Mickey Mouse" BS that accumulates in a all units. A SGM with intestinal fortitude to say, "that is "f^&*$d up and my soldiers are not doing it!" A SGM who is cool under fire, seen the elephant and we would follow to hell, just for the sheer pleasure of watching of watching him put a jungle boot up Satan's fart-box!






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CSM G357 Sgm &Amp; Senior Enlisted Advisor To The A Co S G357, Director Of Operations
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12 y
I agree that a lot of those who are saying that degrees are necessary have degrees already. I have my degree as well, however, it can not be a blanket one size fits all deal. You cannot hold a Soldier who spends their entire career in line units deploying to the same standard as those who hide out in TDA assignments. I did earn my degree on Active duty, as I am still serving. However, I finished it at the Sergeants Major Academy. My first real opportunity to take classes on a regular basis. When you are deploying every other year, going to the NTC/JRTC, the field, etc, you have to do a class here and there. I did more college in 10 months at the Academy than I did in 8 years in 10th Mountain. Not saying degrees aren't important, I think they are personally. However, to make it a requirement, when there is no way to implement it makes it not enforceable and impossible to hold every Soldier to. For those advocates out there for this, think about if it is equally possible for every Soldier in the military to get this degree. I just know first hand, I took classes every chance I got between all my job requirements and it still took me 9 years to finish my degree. I know there will be those out there that say you can even do it on deployment. Well, to those I will say, you obviously didn't spend much time out at the little FOB/COPs with no phones, internet, etc. I think it is a great to have, not a must have.
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CSM G357 Sgm &Amp; Senior Enlisted Advisor To The A Co S G357, Director Of Operations
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12 y
I agree that a lot of those who are saying that degrees are necessary have degrees already. I have my degree as well, however, it can not be a blanket one size fits all deal. You cannot hold a Soldier who spends their entire career in line units deploying to the same standard as those who hide out in TDA assignments. I did earn my degree on Active duty, as I am still serving. However, I finished it at the Sergeants Major Academy. My first real opportunity to take classes on a regular basis. When you are deploying every other year, going to the NTC/JRTC, the field, etc, you have to do a class here and there. I did more college in 10 months at the Academy than I did in 8 years in 10th Mountain. Not saying degrees aren't important, I think they are personally. However, to make it a requirement, when there is no way to implement it makes it not enforceable and impossible to hold every Soldier to. For those advocates out there for this, think about if it is equally possible for every Soldier in the military to get this degree. I just know first hand, I took classes every chance I got between all my job requirements and it still took me 9 years to finish my degree. I know there will be those out there that say you can even do it on deployment. Well, to those I will say, you obviously didn't spend much time out at the little FOB/COPs with no phones, internet, etc. I think it is a great to have, not a must have.
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CSM G357 Sgm &Amp; Senior Enlisted Advisor To The A Co S G357, Director Of Operations
CSM (Join to see)
12 y
I agree that a lot of those who are saying that degrees are necessary have degrees already. I have my degree as well, however, it can not be a blanket one size fits all deal. You cannot hold a Soldier who spends their entire career in line units deploying to the same standard as those who hide out in TDA assignments. I did earn my degree on Active duty, as I am still serving. However, I finished it at the Sergeants Major Academy. My first real opportunity to take classes on a regular basis. When you are deploying every other year, going to the NTC/JRTC, the field, etc, you have to do a class here and there. I did more college in 10 months at the Academy than I did in 8 years in 10th Mountain. Not saying degrees aren't important, I think they are personally. However, to make it a requirement, when there is no way to implement it makes it not enforceable and impossible to hold every Soldier to. For those advocates out there for this, think about if it is equally possible for every Soldier in the military to get this degree. I just know first hand, I took classes every chance I got between all my job requirements and it still took me 9 years to finish my degree. I know there will be those out there that say you can even do it on deployment. Well, to those I will say, you obviously didn't spend much time out at the little FOB/COPs with no phones, internet, etc. I think it is a great to have, not a must have.
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SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
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I think in todays time E-9 should have a 4-year degree, after all its about being well rounded on the battlefieid as well as the classroom.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
"after all, it's about being well rounded" - who says? or what doctrine says?<div><br></div><div>I've seen no directives, guidance or doctrine that supports "being well rounded in the classroom"?</div><div><br></div>
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MSG Telecommunications Operations Chief
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Degrees don't necessarily make you well rounded. Different military courses and schools do.
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SFC Stephen Hester
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While I agree that education is a force multiplier I don't think that we should mandate a BA/BS degree for SGM/CSM. TO require a degree would discriminate against NCOs whose career paths kept them in line units where they may not have as many opportunities for college as others. It would also place an NCO with no college at a disadvantage compared to an NCO who entered the Army with a college degree.

The bar for SGM/CSM selection is and should continue to be high so having a degree should carry some weight in the selection process so long as it is somewhat applicable to the duties and responsibilities at that level ( a BS in Management versus a BA in Art, for example).
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SSG C Ied & Irw Instructor
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I think it should not be a requirement.

 

I joined the Army as an Infantryman, my job is to close with and destroy the enemies of the USA (and do area beautification).  While I am pursuing a degree in Investigative Forensics, is that going to make me a better Infantryman?  A better leader?  No.  The tools I need to lead my men and excel at my job are not found in the halls of your local alma mater; they are found through experience and dedication to the capacity in which you volunteered to serve.

 

It is possible for most to attain a degree in their career, it requires extra effort, but those that make it their sole focus are dead weight to the Army and they cause others to pick up their slack.  The 2nd and 3rd order effects of an NCO who doesn't do his job reach down to the lowest private, as your seniors, peers, and subordinates are giving up extra time and effort to complete your end of the mission.

 

Requiring a degree to become a Sergeant Major seems like a pretty low priority in the grand scheme of things when we look at what else needs to be fixed within our organizations.

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SSG Aircraft Powertrain Repairer
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12 y
I agree with you
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SFC A.M. Drake
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Yes I believe this is true, as it prepares them for the outside workforce, remember for civilians don't care it you served one day or 40 years, what does matter is the value  you bring to that organization.
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SSG Aircraft Powertrain Repairer
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To caveat to your explanation I would disagree with you.  There are literally hundreds of jobs the Army has that would make time to do college difficult.  For example an infantryman that is 18yrs old can he earn a degree with all the pt, arms training, road marches, and other unit requirements.  Probably not; now take NCO's like us in jobs that are considered pretty sham...instructors, recruiters, etc.  We are afforded opportunities because of the unique placement in our careers.  I dont think it should be mandatory to make CSM to have a degree and anyone else who would submit otherwise needs to go work in a combat arms job for a while on the low end of the todem pole.  The schedules for these Soldiers are grueling and exhausting the last thing they want to do is college.  BTW yes career managers do no just write off your military experience.  I personally vouched for several of my prior serviced Soldiers in the field of NDI in aviation and they dont have degrees and are earning 80-100k so I dont think the future employers will just disregard service.  I do beleive the blue-collar economy is coming back and degrees will get you a fry job or a senior manager job it is just what a person outside the military is willing to put forth as far as effort is concerned ot attain it.  The purpose of this discussion was to clarify need to have a degree to be a CSM I do not beleive that is realistic in todays Army a bunch of the smartest dummies in the military.  Focus too much on education and less on military responsibility then we will sacrifice our training and strengths currently being degraded.  that is why the CSM of the Army flat out regulated newbs from attaining degrees in less than 6 years.  He wants a hardened force not a bunch of intelligent non-warriors.
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SMSgt Alan Saunders
SMSgt Alan Saunders
12 y
Just remember that an 18 year-old infantryman will not be competing for CSM any time soon.  I still don't see a down side to requiring a 4-year degree for that level of Senior NCO.
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SFC Ricardo Ruiz
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To answer the OP. YES. But I think the armed forces will have more success by offering more than a school option upon reenlist at least for soldiers who really want to pursue a degree while in service.
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SGM Chief Food Operations Management Sgm
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12 y
Well said.  The intent is for Soldiers to improve themselves.  The goal is improving my knowledge base; degree completion is a second-order effect.  To be an effective leader, I also have to complete all of the required and recommended PME.

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