Posted on Nov 23, 2013
Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?
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With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate <span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px; white-space: nowrap;">degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</span>
Education
College
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 176
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MSG(P) Quick and MSG Cunningham,
You learn something new every day. Was it replaced?
You learn something new every day. Was it replaced?
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SGM Matthew Quick
No...but most posts/locations offer a quarterly Commander/1SG Course which lasts one week.
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I think the bigger question here is what kind of person seeks out a 2 year, 4 year or graduate education. I think as far as value from a leadership perspective it indicates that the individual is pushing their personal bar higher. This need for personal growth is a critical factor in regards to leadership. The education is merely a by product of this trait. However the individual who really encompasses that of a leader will more than likely set the bar high in other areas. The level of education can be viewed as a predictive indicator . While a cadet at USAFA there was a quote that I still remember even though I did not graduate from there. "Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge. " In essence to be a leader you do not have to have an education but as a leader you want to have an education.
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I reviewed a few responses. This is an interesting question.
I’m of the opinion that education is a critically important part of the leader
development experience. We must adapt to a changing world. I also see it as a
matter of balance. Obviously learning your job is the first priority. Earning
the degree will sharpen you as an individual and improve on the tools you
already have. Additionally, Soldiers gain an important sense of accomplishment
when they graduate. This accomplishment transcends military service and has
greater implications on Family dynamics. Especially those who come from a
Family where they are the first to reach the milestone of college graduate.
This is an important example to set for any children they have. Lastly I’d say
that earning a degree is particularly important for the CSM/SGM population
because you need to be a relevant member of the team with a voice at the table.
You are surrounded field grade officers daily, all with advanced degrees. You
are engaged at the strategic level and critical thinking is a core competency.
If not careful, the CSM/SGM can be marginalized and minimized based on
perceived limited abilities. The education simply helps to broaden your scope.
It may also send a message to your contemporaries when they realize you have
the same level of education.
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SPC David S.
Well said CSM Antes Gilbert. Balance is key as being a leader as well as the ability to improve as an individual through self assessment. Senior level NCO'S and officers should set the bar high. While I'm not saying a degree gives you the ability to be a great leader it does reflect the individuals ability to adapt and strengthen areas that need improvement.
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SSG (Join to see)
I totally agree with your statements CSM. Showing balance and the ability to adapt and overcome the steady changes in our Army not only gives inspiration to Soldiers, but to their families and other civilians outside this organization.
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No, there was a push in Class 59 to establish this as a requirement....the same folks behind the movement were generally the non-deployers.
During one of the phases, we swapped memorandums to grade another classmates memo.....one classmate was extremely upset that she received a low grade from a fellow student and she made a huge scene stating that none of the other students were qualified to grade her work. She had a Doctorate degree while the other student (me) had an Associates degree.....she had no clue what it took to wear the V device I had pinned upon my chest during combat operation as USASMA was as close as she ever was to combat (due to the violence across our border in Juarez). So, to me, not no but hell no. As long as we continue to select train and promote those senior NCOs (who are eligible,by MOS) to deploy and gave not deployed to combat, then we ought not levy that requirement either.
Is a booksmart leader better than a battlefield tested and proven leader? It is my opinion that the leader that has proven himself in the college classroom us much more competitive to be a 2nd LT than a SGM or CSM. The ideal is one with both skills.
During one of the phases, we swapped memorandums to grade another classmates memo.....one classmate was extremely upset that she received a low grade from a fellow student and she made a huge scene stating that none of the other students were qualified to grade her work. She had a Doctorate degree while the other student (me) had an Associates degree.....she had no clue what it took to wear the V device I had pinned upon my chest during combat operation as USASMA was as close as she ever was to combat (due to the violence across our border in Juarez). So, to me, not no but hell no. As long as we continue to select train and promote those senior NCOs (who are eligible,by MOS) to deploy and gave not deployed to combat, then we ought not levy that requirement either.
Is a booksmart leader better than a battlefield tested and proven leader? It is my opinion that the leader that has proven himself in the college classroom us much more competitive to be a 2nd LT than a SGM or CSM. The ideal is one with both skills.
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
SFC Leverett, here's the question "Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9? With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?"
I ask you to read my post again and if there is still confusion please consider the following.
The extreme measure of the NCO that can barely read and write was not in that USASMA class however, more than 120 classmates never deployed. Coincidentally (and ironically) the SGM in my discussion (with the Doctorate degree) actually struggled writing using the military writing style.
I stand by my statement that the ideal leader is battlefield tested and educated. Current standards do not require either 4-year degree or combat operations at this point. Maybe that's the standard we need. Good discussion, and if I do not understand your point, please re-engage.
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Short answer = yes.
I believe you should have an Associates degree before you advance to E-7 (Senior NCO). In the Air Force, this is done in your military specialty through the CCAF by transferring credit for military training, testing via CLEP and DANTES, and using tuition assistance to finish core classes. Minimal out-of-pocket cost and you have a degree.
Taking these steps to the next level enables you to pursue a Bachelor's degree in much the same manner. This degree should be a prerequisite for promotion to the top enlisted grade. Chief Master Sergeants, Master Chief Petty Officers, and Sergeants Major all fill billets that are leaders and high level managers. The 4-year degree may teach them certain skills, but more importantly it shows a level of commitment - to themselves, to those they lead, and to their service.
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LTJG Kevin Matthews
Senior, you make an interesting point. I believe it's important for us to recognize that the services have different needs. I can see the AF and Space Force requiring a higher level of education than some other services simply because of the higher technical demands of those services. It makes practical sense. Other services, like the Army and Marine Corps, may have less need for their senior NCOs to be formally educated in technical fields. CCAF should be geared towards helping aspiring NCOs achieve this expertise, and the chain of command should encourage young airmen to avail themselves of this training.
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Do I think that a degree should be required for E9? No.
Do I think that a degree would help set him apart from his peers? Yes.
Do I think that a degree would make him a better SGM? No.
Here is why. There are many different degree's that you could obtain in college and just because that person has one of them does not change the Leader they have become over the last (insert career length). If you are being looked at for E9 then you have obviously continued to set yourself apart from your peers. You have demonstrated the potential for promotion time and time again. It is my belief that a degree will help you add another tic mark for progression but is not a realistic requirement. The requirements for enlisted education have already been implemented, WLC - SM Academy. While it is possible to get a degree while serving you cannot presume to think that it is obtainable by all Enlisted Soldiers / MOS's just because you were able to do it. The military in general is a giant evolving ball of individualism. Your career is not my career or another Soldier's career. Endstate here is you cannot require something for promotion that has not been implemented into an enlisted glide-path for promotion. You cannot require something that has no military connection. If you are to require a degree for promotion to E9 that gap between enlisted and commissioned pay better close a lot more than it is. I say all of this from a neutral standpoint. Too many times we answer these questions or act on our own personal endeavors instead of looking at the larger picture. I am working on my BS in computer forensics while serving and when its possible between deployments and training. It is a long process for me but I am making it work, slowly. I sacrifice time with my family that should not be a requirement. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should require it.
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It makes you more marketable, those that say no do to OPTEMPO is BS. I got my ASS., BACH., AND MASTERS ALL in 6-7 year period while serving as a platoon sergeant, first sergeant and deploying twice and having a family of four. So it can be done, time management and support of family
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MSG (P) Quick, I do not think it "should" be a requirement, but highly recommended. As Senior NCO's we are the Senior Advisor to the Company, BN or BDE CDR. As many have reverted to, we as 1SG look over hundreds of awards and NCOERs to include counseling within our company. We, SNCOs, should seek higher education, not basely for promotion, but for personal growth. We are an ever changing Army, an educated Army. Many Soldiers are entering the service with some form of education already. I have seen counseling statements that should have really been looked over prior to being presented to Soldiers. A degree is worth more than "promotion" points, it should be worth personal goal. Sounds like a cliche, but anything one does, should be done for individual growth and not for what can "get" you promoted. Great question to spark not only my thoughts on this, but many as well MSG (P).
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i believe a degree is a worthwhile endeavor. That being said I personally know many individuals who want to check the block on this by finding an easy online course and skate through it. It should go back to a personal achievement. Something the individual did in pursuit of a future goal. ie Job after the military.
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NO - HELL NO. Enlisted Leaders are not Officers, but are busy learning their jobs as Technical Leaders and as Military Leaders if they chose to go into the Command Structure. In either case The E-9 is busy refining his/her specialty and taking time away from learning your job to pursue a degree does not improve your performance. I have met too many book-smart people who could not teach people to fix equipment, or lead Sailors/Soldiers/Marines/Airmen to the head.
Navy Master Chief Petty Officers (and those in our Sister Services) have Professional Development Courses tailored to making them better Sailors and this is the goal we need to achieve. College degrees make us better in various fields as civilians for the most part. If you know Graduates of the Service Academies they are professional Military Members, not really the same as their University ROTC "Peers." Requiring a Navy Master Chief to have a 4 year degree of any type does not make him a better Sailor and may, in fact cause her/him to be distracted from Navy.
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