Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9? With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?

Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?

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Posted >1 y ago

A colleague and I were discussing the "younger generation," or, the one's who will replace us. These kids are growing up in a smarter and more technologically-centered world than any of us senior NCO's. To not realize that is to not tap into what will be known as the start of a "tehnological shift" of the way we do things. Granted, not all of this will take a degree and I would never want to take the personal touch and what you go through to get "there" away from leadership. A degree, whether two, four, master's or doctorate, is more of an indication of time management, perserverance and a seeking of higher knowledge. I work in the corporate environment and have twice as much "experience" in leadership than any of the senior officers of this company. Does that get me an immediate promotion? No. Wish it did but it doesn't. Add to that fact that recent grads are coming into a work force with MBA's and you see where your post-military future is pointing towards. Now, when we are in the military the younger kids are getting in for various reasons. Many are taking advantage of the bonuses and money for college. Some stay in after college, but most get out. It's a revolving door. Is is a necessity? No. I like the fact that it ought to be taken as "part" of a comprehensive package. The attainment of a degree doesn't mean you have arrived. It means you have taken another, harder-to-travel, road along the way.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

As we move into a more integrated and electronic army, it is important for all senior NCOs to be able to navigate and effectively communicate with all echelons necessary for mission completion. I feel a four year degree should be mandatory for NCOs beginning at SFC. While this may seem somewhat dramatic, a senior NCOs responsibilities is greatly changed from that of NCOs. For example, staff positions, NCOICs, platoon sergeant positions, and above require a more broad approach to leadership than simply training and pushing your troops. You wont learn leadership, or practical knowledge in school; you should have gotten that before you became a senior NCO. What a college degree offers is the ability to take your managerial approach to higher levels; while it is hard to specifically define, I find that my education (not my degree) helps me to perform my job many levels above my peers, no matter their level of Army experience.

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SSG (Join to see)

>1 y

SFC,

Question for you. How does a college teach you a managerial approach to higher levels or to be able to perform above your peers? You can teach someone to become a leader but it’s up to them to grab the reins to be able to learn the positions above theirs, techniques, tactics and the needed knowledge. Weather it’s getting back into the books, getting with a mentor or just learning new positions, techniques and tactics from others. This is how you get ahead of your peers as well. The education will help to, both Military and Civilian Education. And this might, I said might open a can of worms here, but the level Army experience can and has won over education (the book worm) time and time again. But I’m not here start any type of arguments, IF a degree is needed, then it should start before that of SFC; SGT should be the first step. The bottom line SFC, Soldiers should have some college education when time permits. Being a Soldier comes first. Last, Both the CSM G. and CW2 M. both said it best, "It would be highly advisable to have a drgee".

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

No can of worms, you hold a very common point. Grabbing the reins and taking charge is not something that college is going to teach you. It is probably difficult to quantify what college is going to help you do to someone that doesn't already have one. This is because you don't know how many levels above your game you can perform until you get there. I don't think I have ever met another educated NCO, senior NCO or officer that said that it wasn't worth it, or even necessary. You do have a valid point that experience trumps over education, however having been in the Army for a long time, even before the wars. I have met these experienced NCOs with no education that you are speaking of, and they are lacking time and again. I am not sure how to respond to your military education comment because I have no idea what it is that you wrote. So to sum up my point, you are right that an education wont give you what you are speaking of, you should have gotten that way before you became an NCO. But, there is a distinction between an NCO and a senior NCO and I think having an education (not a degree) is an important part of performing the job well, not just performing the job. Also, please read over your posts before you send them, I had to read over the paragraph several times to understand it and some of your sentences are incoherent and make no sense. Thank you for making my point.

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SSG (Join to see)

>1 y

SFC,

I have no clue as to what your degree(s) are in and as I have but I will share mine with the you. I came into the Military with an Associates in Computer Science and then completed my Bachelors in CJA (Narcotics), both in my MOS that would help me once I left the ARMY. Having said that and hopefully I’ll clarify my last post, if not, promotable Specialists, Non Commissioned Officers (Sergeants) should have at least an Associates Degree. But having a degree would only be a recommendation and NOT a requirement IF you are going to continue your Military Career towards retirement. And to have a degree that will help you upon your retirement from the Military. Having any College education or as many credit’s a Soldier can get can put them ahead of their peers that is true. As I have explained to my Soldiers while I was in.

As I have performed in Leadership positions from Team Leader to Platoon Sergeant in a Combat zone, and in Garrison, I have found having that education has assisted me in both areas. And only being a Staff Sergeant, that performance was commended by fellow NCO’s as well of that of Senior NCO’s. On that note, having since being medically retired, I can say my writing is slacking a bit; since I do not need to write to a CSM, COL or a 2 Star, and stand before them at a briefing.

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MSG (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

.

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MSG (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

I have a question related to Senior NCOs with advanced
educations. At what point does an NCO
with a Master’s Degree stop being a traditional NCO and evolves into something
else? Educated NCOs provide their
commands valuable skills and insight and are educationally near peer with the
officers they work with. But are they
just cheaper officers? Should they become
Warrant Officers of some kind, even for branches without Warrant Officers?

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CW3 Ian Mains

>1 y

Educated NCOs already become Warrant Officers. What exactly are you suggesting?

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MSG (Join to see)

>1 y

CW2 Mains, I am a psychological operations sergeant and my
MOS is not a feeder for any Warrant Officer Program. Many positions held by
highly educated NCOs like, strategic planners assigned to the TSOCs, the MISOC
or USASOC, are not "typical" NCO positions with subordinate soldiers
to lead, but rather a member of staffs or planning teams comprised of field
grade officers. As for a feasible recommendation, I don’t have a good
suggestion other than to create Warrant Officer Programs for those MOSs that don’t
currently have one.

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MSG (Join to see)

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

This question actually prompts another question in my
mind. What is the value of a senior NCO
in this new leaner, more educated military that finds itself engaged in persistent
complex operations? A Sergeant Major is
generally a senior enlisted advisor to a Lieutenant Colonel or higher. These Officers generally have over 20 years
of service and a Master’s Degree or better.
They match the NCO in military experience and trump them in education. As a senior enlisted advisor, what advice
does a senior NCO with a high school diploma really have to offer in the way of
sound strategic advice for a commander or staff officer? If you are an under educated NCO in a room
full of highly experienced and educated officers, then you’re just a person in
the room taking up space. If you want to
be a highly valued senior NCO, get your Master’s Degree.

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

MSG, you make sense. Better retire.

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SFC Gary Fox

>1 y

MSG, the degree an officer has does not have a thing to do with the advisor role a SGM plays. What do degrees in Business, Political Science, or any other major have to do with being in the Infantry, Military Police, Combat Engineers, or any other military career field? Nothing really.

What the SGM brings to the table is years of experience in his occupational field at a level the officer does not.

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CW2 Geoff Lachance

Edited >1 y ago

Posted >1 y ago

No! That rank is reserved for those who have earned their degree the old fashioned way! You don't get that kind of respect from books!

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SSG Mike Angelo

Posted >1 y ago

No. Because the enlisted personnel are not wired to the college tract. And is that the message that a Senior NCO is making to subordinates?

..."Oh, lookie here, I got mine?" Officer career tracts are geared for the college and advance degrees. So, what are we trying to pull here? About 40 years ago, NCOs gave up personal counseling to their Soldiers...maybe NCOs need to take that back.

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SGT (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

Just my own curiousity so humor me....If we are requiring SNCO Corps. to attain a BS/BA, then what seperates them from a Branch Officer...OCS and thats it? Keep in mind im not minimalizing OCS but shouldnt there be something substainal to seperate the two?

This is how I see this currently stacking up...by what the Army is requiring

E-9:

SSD1-4

BCT

AIT

WLC

ALC

SLC

MANY years of experience

Positions

Reccomendations

Military Correspondence (up to E-6)

Additional Duty Assignments

Awards

4-Year degree

Deployments (not required but lets face facts if the army has 2 apples that are the EXACT same except one has a bow....they're taking the bow)

O-1:

4-Year Degree

Officer Canidate School

I undertand completely that this is skewd becuase it is comparing O-1 to E-9 and that an E-9 is paid over double an 0-1 with <2 years.

My question is what motivation do those in the enlisted ranks have to stay SNCO's or even follow that path when there is the option of having to do almost the exact same things and possibly be paid more as well as the other (forgive me for the lack of better words) perks that come with being an officer over enlisted?

Furthermore whats the point in the Green-Gold Program if you need the same stuff if you just STAY Green?

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1LT (Join to see)

>1 y

SGT Curtis I completely agree with you. However, the results are a little skewed there in your favor. An E-9 has been in a very long time while an O-1 has not. Compare the entry rank for both enlisted and officer.

Enlisted:
Basic Training and AIT

Officer:
4 year degree, OCS or ROTC, and BOLC

I completely agree with you that NCO's should not have to go to school but most do anyway (Just because its the nature of our leaders to want to know more). I had a MSG who was a ranger and was extremely advanced in schooling. He just preferred to not go officer route because he liked being close to the troops on the ground. Its sad but as an officer I'm already finding out that sooner or later I'll be sitting in a desk.

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SGT (Join to see)

>1 y

Oh yes I realize that the comparison was skewed as I stated before I was only expressing that there is little separating an officer and a SNCO to encourage those even at the equal rank from going enlisted vs officer except having to start again at the bottom of the totem pole

But you are very correct Sir, the entry level requirements are definitely higher for branch officers

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1LT (Join to see)

>1 y

I definitely agree with you SGT Curtis. I do know that to be competitive for CPT and be considered for selection below the zone, they recommend starting a Masters degree for officers. There's also the requirement that you can't go to O-5 without ILE where you have to get a masters there as well (Don;t quote me on this!). Either way, You are right in that there is little difference between a junior officer and senior NCO.

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PO1 Julio G.

Posted 12 y ago

It is in the Navy. In fact, you must have an Associates to advance to E7, a Bachelors for E8, and a Masters for E9.

At least that's how it was right before I retired in '09. I think that policy was just being enforced then.

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1SG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

I agree with most people on here in that it shouldn't be a requirement. I am also with the camp that says it should way very heavily with the board members on the fact that a candidate for promotion to E-9 has a degree. I know that it does to some extent now, but I think that greater emphasis should be placed on it. It would help them mentor the officers in the unit and show the junior and senior NCO's that it can be done prior to their departure from the Service.

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Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?

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