Posted on Aug 20, 2019
Should active or reserve mil pers be discharged "other than honorable" for displaying or assoc with Nazi or White Supremacy symbols/groups?
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Responses: 26
Displaying, no, but in today's PC environment the people who do this are more likely than not to run up against other UCMJ infractions that will lead to discharge.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
SSgt (Join to see) See your point, but tough to pull off, especially in CONUS.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen - When I was in, pagers were a thing. Unless you had a MilSec pager, they were not allowed at the unit. When we geared up for Desert Storm we were expressly ordered no comms on UseNet, BBSes, pagers, et al. No telling our spouse we were maybe shipping out. Nothing - full comm blackout. Then CNN was embedded deeper than a tick and the generals started seeing things happen on TV before the Captains were even aware of the strategy.
Now, we have another dimension to warfare and that is the electronic spectrum, to include social media. It also includes disinformation pogroms and hacking events. And this is the area we will be beat if we don't lock it down.
I totally hear you though Sir. It is so ubiquitous that there would be a revolt in the ranks.
Now, we have another dimension to warfare and that is the electronic spectrum, to include social media. It also includes disinformation pogroms and hacking events. And this is the area we will be beat if we don't lock it down.
I totally hear you though Sir. It is so ubiquitous that there would be a revolt in the ranks.
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CW4 Craig Urban
Barrows you are way off base. I wish you would have worked for me. You would not have retired.
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CW4 Craig Urban
My best friend a combat medic dennis french got killed on the battlefield in Nam. I am tired of your crap
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Displaying? No. That is covered under 1a and just displaying it means nothing. Many people have a rebel flag. Also people collect vintage material like flags and such. The caveat to that is if the display of such causes an issue with other personnel in the unit. IE displaying a rebel flag in the same room as a POC; a Nazi flag in the same room as say a person of German, Jewish or other heritage that finds it offensive.
As far as association with those groups? For a repeat offense after being ordered to NOT associate with them, then yes. But once it is discovered they associate with say the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood or some other such ground they should be counseled with the appropriate regulation reference stating that such association is conduct unbecoming and a poor reflection on the Army as well as a degradation of morale and unit readiness. Then follow on with an outline of cease and desist... OR...
As far as association with those groups? For a repeat offense after being ordered to NOT associate with them, then yes. But once it is discovered they associate with say the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood or some other such ground they should be counseled with the appropriate regulation reference stating that such association is conduct unbecoming and a poor reflection on the Army as well as a degradation of morale and unit readiness. Then follow on with an outline of cease and desist... OR...
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Brian G. refereing me the a Study Guide is hilarious.
I read AR 600-20, and a few of the posted training and lesson plans with handouts regarding related policy.
If you believe that you're going to find everything prohibited thing, it demonstrates your level of experience.
Regardless, you've reached your opinion based on your review of the Study Guide, and I from AR 600-20, and we have differing opinions.
I read AR 600-20, and a few of the posted training and lesson plans with handouts regarding related policy.
If you believe that you're going to find everything prohibited thing, it demonstrates your level of experience.
Regardless, you've reached your opinion based on your review of the Study Guide, and I from AR 600-20, and we have differing opinions.
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SSG Brian G.
1SG (Join to see) - You are putting in person opinion. Not even AR 600-20 supports you. In point of fact it supports the Study guide.
When we set opinion aside, your argument deflates. It is up to commander discretion as to what transpires as the regs do not mandate.
A smart and thinking commander, which most are, walks into a situation like the display of a flag that is perhaps questionable and refers the matter to his or her NCOes which look at it and ask the pertinent question. Is this affecting the unit? Is it affecting any person in the room with the SM? If both are no then the commander can leave it in place. It does not affect anything. If the answer is yes, then the commander acts and orders the removal and stowage of the item. Case closed.
When we set opinion aside, your argument deflates. It is up to commander discretion as to what transpires as the regs do not mandate.
A smart and thinking commander, which most are, walks into a situation like the display of a flag that is perhaps questionable and refers the matter to his or her NCOes which look at it and ask the pertinent question. Is this affecting the unit? Is it affecting any person in the room with the SM? If both are no then the commander can leave it in place. It does not affect anything. If the answer is yes, then the commander acts and orders the removal and stowage of the item. Case closed.
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Brian G. you lack the experience and training to explain how it works, real world, to me.
Here is how it works real world.
PVT Burmiester displays a Confederate flag. His 1SG and CO are aware of it, and don't have an issue with it.
One evening, PVT Wright and PVT Burmiester drive around Fayetteville, and Burmeister murders two people.
CO and 1SG have hell to pay. Burmeister dies in Federal prison.
19 other Soldiers found to have supported like views were discharged.
That's real world.
Your belief as to what negatively impacts a unit is based on your training and experience. Likewise, mine is based on experience as a SL, DS, PSG, ANCOC SGL, EO Rep, and 1SG.
I haven't forgotten how to interpret AR 600-20, and I still disagree with your opinion.
Here is how it works real world.
PVT Burmiester displays a Confederate flag. His 1SG and CO are aware of it, and don't have an issue with it.
One evening, PVT Wright and PVT Burmiester drive around Fayetteville, and Burmeister murders two people.
CO and 1SG have hell to pay. Burmeister dies in Federal prison.
19 other Soldiers found to have supported like views were discharged.
That's real world.
Your belief as to what negatively impacts a unit is based on your training and experience. Likewise, mine is based on experience as a SL, DS, PSG, ANCOC SGL, EO Rep, and 1SG.
I haven't forgotten how to interpret AR 600-20, and I still disagree with your opinion.
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SSG Brian G.
Oh you are a riot @1SG (Anonymous) I just explained REAL WORLD how it works. You just have an issue with your personal opinion gumming up the thing between your ears. Cute blocking a person when you can't handle the conversation or reality.
Wrong. Wong. and WRONG. That Confederate flag had zip and squat to do with what that Pvt did. It is a FLAG. Period. Full stop. Not a representation of the KKK or any other extremist group.
Wrong. Wong. and WRONG. That Confederate flag had zip and squat to do with what that Pvt did. It is a FLAG. Period. Full stop. Not a representation of the KKK or any other extremist group.
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If it is found go for due justice and investigate. If known to be attached to or affiliated with these groups then seperate with a no reenlist code on the DD-214 (if service is honorable). HOWEVER, just being affiliated with them is no crime so no other than honorable is warranted. Displaying a flag or a symbol is no crime, not good for morale and probably not the right thing to do but it isn't a crime. Other than honorable condtions are for crimes against the UCMJ and currently there is no statute in the ucmj for any of the above. BUT... you could probably attach Art 82 Conspiracy, Art 117 Provoking speeches or gestures, Art 134-12-Disloyal Statements if you stretched is far enough. Usually when outed if someone is affiliated it gets around and then the fights start etc and that is where you can get them withbeingprejudicial to good order and discipline. But until it is captured in the UCMJ you have to go other routes for dismissal...IMHO.
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Morton
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
PO3 Bob McCord
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Sgt Wayne Wood
PVT James Strait
SFC Jack Champion
MSgt David Hoffman
MSgt Stephen Council
SGT Elizabeth Scheck
PO1 H Gene Lawrence
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Morton
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
PO3 Bob McCord
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Sgt Wayne Wood
PVT James Strait
SFC Jack Champion
MSgt David Hoffman
MSgt Stephen Council
SGT Elizabeth Scheck
PO1 H Gene Lawrence
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Slippery slope on the way to conduct unbecoming, but ultimately a decision made at a Court Martial.
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I went through this argument in the '70's over "Black Panthers" vs. "Aryan Nation". Ask DOD what their decision was than; the major difference between then and today is the amount of poisonous venom spewed by the Main Stream press. No investigations into allegations just pure venom without facts. Did you not hear of the NYT https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/trump-blasts-new-york-times-racism-witch-hunt.html
Trump Blasts NY Times, Accuses It of Going on a “Racism Witch Hunt”
The president says his poll numbers would be far better if there was an “honest media.”
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Christopher Smith - Lots? I was still in then and didn't see it. Despite all the hype, the White Power groups like Posse Comitatus had less than 100 active members and the Aryan Brotherhood is simply a prison based gang (and vastly outnumbered by Black Prison and Street Gangs). Since most of the numbers you read about on "White Hate Groups" are from SPL, ignoring 70 percent and questioning the validity of the other 30 percent would be a safe course.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Christopher Smith - I responded to some of this above, but I'll hit the highlights again. I've seen the lists, but the size and actions of most of these groups just don't make them much of a threat. As I pointed out above, a White Power rally in Pikeville, Kentucky drew less than a dozen people and even Charlotte could only come up with about 250 in the middle of the old Confederacy. That isn't a threat. Yes, I served with some unreformed rednecks that were racist and yes, it can become an issue. If you ask me do I think that the military is being dangerously infiltrated by White Power gangs, I just don't see the evidence now or when I served.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Christopher Smith - I am concerned about the real crazies in Neo Nazi and Skin Head groups too, and if membership is established, I would support removing them from the service. But none of these groups are large enough or have enough public support to be a real threat. On the other side, I see Antifa Supporters routinely occupying sections of Portland and having a large presence in a number of other West Coast cities with at least the inaction of the local and state authorities. Which do you see as a bigger threat to Democracy, the 250 guys in Charlotte or the occupation of a major US City by a radical left gang?
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Christopher Smith - Ah, labeling. Now I ask for Documentation. Show me the Dod releases about the "Lot". I can google search it 5 different ways and they all end up at SPL. Link me some data that supports your concern that comes from the DOD and not CNN.
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So if you have a Confederate flag and honor your ancestor who served in the Confederate Army, then you are a racist. Is that what you mean?? BTW, Public law 85-245 establishes that Confederate soldiers are of equal status as Union soldiers. I live in the South and have seen a lot of Confederate flags. There is a Confederate graveyard in the city of Jonesboro, Georgia. Do you want the cemetery destroyed and the bones of the Confederate soldiers scattered to the wind?? BTW there was a black battalion in the Civil War which served on both sides of the Civil War. The current trend of destroying all Confederate symbols are the same tactics of the Red Chinese and the Cambodia rebels who killed everyone who wore glasses with the goal of re-writing history. The anti-Confederate flags and statutes are diverting real issues that should be addressed. There was a black county commissioner in Henry County, Georgia who got a gift store closed because they sold small Confederate flags as well as other items at the Nash Farm battlefield. The commissioner claimed that it wasn't a battlefield despite that the US Historical Commission had already certified that it was a battlefield. I'm getting tired of people making an issue out of anything that they think insults them.
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Sgt Jerry Genesio
LTC Gary Earls - I'm guessing it's illegal for the KKK to lynch black people as well but that didn't stop them from doing it. I'd really like to steer this exchange of opinions back to the original question.
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Sgt Jerry Genesio
LTC Gary Earls - I really don't know, but I know they knew they were breaking the law when they did. Wearing a mask is really petty in comparison. Can we get back to the original question now?
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NAZI and White Supremacy are not the only racist groups in the US and targeting them alone is racist on its own merits. People need to remember hate begets hate and hating on certain groups only empowers the racists.
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PO3 (Join to see)
MAJ Byron Oyler - Well said. Its sad to see the blind one's drumming a mantra of ignoring history and logic.
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Any extremist group regardless of what it is. There are fringe groups on the left too, i guess you just forgot to mention them.
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MAJ John Douglas
SFC Michael Hasbun - Who is talking about WW 2 vets? Antifa is a domestic terrorist group and if you have trouble believing that, you are either part of them or need to watch the many, many videos of their "brown shirt" like activities against people they disagree with. They are thugs and cowards who hide their faces to attack their opponents and then run like rats to avoid the consequences.
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MAJ John Douglas
SFC Michael Hasbun - If you think Antifa is just a "mindset," you are very ill informed. Antifa is a domestic terrorist group that uses Nazi street thug tactics to attack their enemies and try to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Try again.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
MAJ John Douglas - I think ANTIFA is more like the black shirts of Italy...both wore black. Semantics I know.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
SFC Michael Hasbun - Andy NGO, the beat up journalist probably thinks they are more of a group than just a mindset.
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An unfortunate time to display anything. Not pulling for this Marine, not defending either...
In the diverse traditions within Hinduism, both the clockwise and counterclockwise swastika are found, with different meanings. The clockwise or right hand icon is called swastika, while the counterclockwise or left hand icon is called sauvastika.
The swastika or sauwastika (as a character, 卐 or 卍, respectively) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia. Swastik is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions.[1][2][3][4] In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s, when it became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan identity. As a result of World War II and the Holocaust, most people in the Western World associate it with Nazism and antisemitism.[5][6]
The name Swastika comes from Sanskrit word Swastik[7][8][9] (Devanagari: स्वस्तिक) meaning 'conducive to well being' or 'auspicious'.[10][11] In Hinduism, the symbol with arms pointing clockwise (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ('sun'), prosperity and good luck, while the counterclockwise symbol (卍) is called sauvastika, symbolizing night or tantric aspects of Kali.[11] In Jainism, a swastika is the symbol for Suparshvanatha – the seventh of 24 Tirthankaras (spiritual teachers and saviours), while in Buddhism it symbolizes the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.[11][12][13] In several major Indo-European religions, the swastika symbolizes lightning bolts, representing the thunder god and the king of the gods, such as Indra in Vedic Hinduism, Zeus in the ancient Greek religion, Jupiter in the ancient Roman religion, and Thor in the ancient Germanic religion.[1 1]
The swastika is an icon which is widely found in both human history and the modern world.[4][11] In various forms, it is otherwise known (in various European languages) as the fylfot, gammadion, tetraskelion, or cross cramponnée (a term in Anglo-Norman heraldry); German: Hakenkreuz; French: croix gammée. In northern Europe it has also been called a sun-wheel.[14][15] In China it is named wàn 卐 / 卍 / 萬, meaning 'all things', pronounced manji in Japanese. A swastika generally takes the form of a cross, the arms of which are of equal length and perpendicular to the adjacent arms, each bent midway at a right angle.[16][17]
The earliest known swastika is from 10,000 BCE found in Mezine, Ukraine. The symbol is found in the archeological remains of the Sintashta culture and Indus Valley Civilization as well as in early Byzantine and Christian artwork.[4]
The swastika was adopted by several organizations in pre–World War I Europe, and later by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany before World War II. It was used by the Nazi Party to symbolize German nationalistic pride. To Jewish peoples and the targets of Nazi Germany's genocidal eugenics, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[5] In many Western countries, the swastika is viewed as a symbol of racial supremacism and intimidation because of its association with Nazism.[6][18][19] Reverence for the swastika symbol in Asian cultures, in contrast to the West's stigmatization of the symbol, has led to misinterpretations and misunderstandings. The symbol is still rallied behind as a sign of Neo-Nazism.[20][21]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
We condemn from the narrow perspective we hold to. There are many religions and beliefs that still use the sun wheel as a focal. Wiccans rarely display it for 2 reasons: 1) Nazis, and 2) Wiccan. Need I say more? It is unfortunate that 90 years of history has wiped away thousands of years of history and left hate in its wake.
In the diverse traditions within Hinduism, both the clockwise and counterclockwise swastika are found, with different meanings. The clockwise or right hand icon is called swastika, while the counterclockwise or left hand icon is called sauvastika.
The swastika or sauwastika (as a character, 卐 or 卍, respectively) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia. Swastik is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions.[1][2][3][4] In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s, when it became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan identity. As a result of World War II and the Holocaust, most people in the Western World associate it with Nazism and antisemitism.[5][6]
The name Swastika comes from Sanskrit word Swastik[7][8][9] (Devanagari: स्वस्तिक) meaning 'conducive to well being' or 'auspicious'.[10][11] In Hinduism, the symbol with arms pointing clockwise (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ('sun'), prosperity and good luck, while the counterclockwise symbol (卍) is called sauvastika, symbolizing night or tantric aspects of Kali.[11] In Jainism, a swastika is the symbol for Suparshvanatha – the seventh of 24 Tirthankaras (spiritual teachers and saviours), while in Buddhism it symbolizes the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.[11][12][13] In several major Indo-European religions, the swastika symbolizes lightning bolts, representing the thunder god and the king of the gods, such as Indra in Vedic Hinduism, Zeus in the ancient Greek religion, Jupiter in the ancient Roman religion, and Thor in the ancient Germanic religion.[1 1]
The swastika is an icon which is widely found in both human history and the modern world.[4][11] In various forms, it is otherwise known (in various European languages) as the fylfot, gammadion, tetraskelion, or cross cramponnée (a term in Anglo-Norman heraldry); German: Hakenkreuz; French: croix gammée. In northern Europe it has also been called a sun-wheel.[14][15] In China it is named wàn 卐 / 卍 / 萬, meaning 'all things', pronounced manji in Japanese. A swastika generally takes the form of a cross, the arms of which are of equal length and perpendicular to the adjacent arms, each bent midway at a right angle.[16][17]
The earliest known swastika is from 10,000 BCE found in Mezine, Ukraine. The symbol is found in the archeological remains of the Sintashta culture and Indus Valley Civilization as well as in early Byzantine and Christian artwork.[4]
The swastika was adopted by several organizations in pre–World War I Europe, and later by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany before World War II. It was used by the Nazi Party to symbolize German nationalistic pride. To Jewish peoples and the targets of Nazi Germany's genocidal eugenics, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[5] In many Western countries, the swastika is viewed as a symbol of racial supremacism and intimidation because of its association with Nazism.[6][18][19] Reverence for the swastika symbol in Asian cultures, in contrast to the West's stigmatization of the symbol, has led to misinterpretations and misunderstandings. The symbol is still rallied behind as a sign of Neo-Nazism.[20][21]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
We condemn from the narrow perspective we hold to. There are many religions and beliefs that still use the sun wheel as a focal. Wiccans rarely display it for 2 reasons: 1) Nazis, and 2) Wiccan. Need I say more? It is unfortunate that 90 years of history has wiped away thousands of years of history and left hate in its wake.
The swastika or sauwastika (as a character, 卐 or 卍, respectively) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia. Swastik is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions.[1][2][3][4] In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s, when it became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan identity. As a result of World War II and the Holocaust,...
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LTC Gary Earls
Also, the 45th Infantry Division used the Swastika as their unit patch until WW2 when they changed it because of the NAZI symbols.
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Sure, as long as we include socialist or anti American thought or association, we also have to include racist groups such as La Raza, Black Panthers, Antifa, Muslim Brotherhood, Black Lives Matter, Queer Nation, and hundreds of others, funny that you only pick the two that you did? Maybe you are biased and or Anti American yourself.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Sgt Jerry Genesio
You contributed nothing to the conversation and the extent of your reply was to imply that COL Clinton is a racist. This is a cheap tactic designed to derail the topic by putting someone on the defensive by attacking them personally and it is a huge pet peeve of mine. If I had to guess though, I doubt you will truly absorb what I am trying to say so I’m just going to bow out here. Good day
You contributed nothing to the conversation and the extent of your reply was to imply that COL Clinton is a racist. This is a cheap tactic designed to derail the topic by putting someone on the defensive by attacking them personally and it is a huge pet peeve of mine. If I had to guess though, I doubt you will truly absorb what I am trying to say so I’m just going to bow out here. Good day
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Sgt Jerry Genesio
SSG(P) (Join to see) - I have contributed nothing to the conversation? I initiated this thread and it is you who never addressed the original issue. But you're going to bow out now. There's a lot of room here for another entire discussion about "cheap tactics".
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MAJ Byron Oyler
Sgt Jerry Genesio - You think the overwhelming majority of hate groups are white because so many do not want to accept there are hate groups that are not white. Largely the hate groups are also not conservative as the KKK has long gotten their strength from the Democratic Party.
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