Posted on Apr 9, 2017
Should an officer be allowed to continue to serve on Active Duty after being relieved from command?
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Some officers are meant to command and lead, and others probably should never be allowed the opportunity. I'm a witness to the case of an ousted ex-commander now working as a staff-O "leading" a highly technical department - his lack of technical competence and inability to mentor and lead others is obvious. Should such an officer be "encouraged" to separate or retire early to make room?
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 267
Unfortunately I've been around my fair share. I had the displeasure of having to "mentor" an ex Trident SSBN skipper that was relieved for "loss of confidence". That's code speak for a major character flaw that somehow made it through all the hurdles to Command. It's usually a massive ego such that they're OK with themselves doing bribery, womanizing, bypass safety protocols and come up under a research ship with a bunch of kids on board.... Oh, the list goes on. I had to work the Ehime Maru recovery out in Hawaii. Not a good period in my life. Every one of these cases I was around in the Seattle area were immediately transferred to TPU pending completion of their exit process. And every time, I wondered how on earth they made it to the point they did. So this ex Nuke was drafting a resume to job hunt on the outside. Regarding his last job it ran along the line of "CO of a nuclear missile submarine. Able to destroy cities." He just couldn't connect the dots on how poorly he was depicting himself and what he thought was important. There was always this toxic nature to this group. My experience is relief for cause means separation soonest is best for the good of the service.
Saw a comment about staying 20. DOPMA doesn't allow that say for an O-4 FOS to O-5 unless a Continuation Board OKs it. Won't happen in these cases. BTW all officers serve at the pleasure of the President. You don't have to encourage anything. You can just put them out. There's a process for that. Retaining someone usually means there's more to the story outside the individual. Saw that too, along with the Gag Order that came with it.
Saw a comment about staying 20. DOPMA doesn't allow that say for an O-4 FOS to O-5 unless a Continuation Board OKs it. Won't happen in these cases. BTW all officers serve at the pleasure of the President. You don't have to encourage anything. You can just put them out. There's a process for that. Retaining someone usually means there's more to the story outside the individual. Saw that too, along with the Gag Order that came with it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Wow! You have a *fascinating* perspective on this topic, sir. I have always wondered about how the other services handled the "basket cases" that sometimes become part of the military's oral history of horror stories. Thank you for your post and contribution to this thread!
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PO1 William Ewing
That is interesting. After that sub hit the Ehime Maru, then grounded in Apra harbor *and* collided with an unrep ship, I wondered why the navy hadn't decommed her, the recommissioned with a new crew.
I was on the Denver 2004 to 2008, and we were still being punished for the 2000 collision with the Yukon, which did wonders for morale, let me tell you. After such events, I think it's best to clean tje slate and start fresh, with a whole new crew. In cases like the Greenville and Vincennes, I would also change the name during recommissioning, due to the infamy.
I was on the Denver 2004 to 2008, and we were still being punished for the 2000 collision with the Yukon, which did wonders for morale, let me tell you. After such events, I think it's best to clean tje slate and start fresh, with a whole new crew. In cases like the Greenville and Vincennes, I would also change the name during recommissioning, due to the infamy.
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LT Ed Skiba
LT Ed Skiba I have been on a few boards of enquiry concerning officers with those ego problems involving engineering casualties. Few stayed around, thank God.
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Unless there is a valid reason for him NOT to continue to serve he should be allowed to remain. Because an individual is relieved of command means there is no confidence in his ability to command...not to serve.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Hi Jim!
In your response, does your interpretation of "serve" for an officer include leadership at a staff level as a second-chance opportunity to demonstrate worth as a contributor to the mission? Would doing so risk hanging onto officers who have no business being in positions of power or leadership?
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
In your response, does your interpretation of "serve" for an officer include leadership at a staff level as a second-chance opportunity to demonstrate worth as a contributor to the mission? Would doing so risk hanging onto officers who have no business being in positions of power or leadership?
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
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SSgt Jim Gilmore
MAJ (Join to see) - Hi Frank, I do not condone keeping those hangers-on who are just marking time to get to retirement and get out. IF an officer was relieved for lack of confidence, does that mean he is no longer of value to the service? Certainly not! It could be a matter of wrong person, wrong place at the wrong time. You must consider the individual overall performance up to and including relief of command. THEN, you re-evaluate the persons performance up to the time they were placed in the command position that led to the no confidence vote.
Should that officer have a spotless and exemplary career to that point, I would say he is certainly a candidate for a second opportunity. If that officer had a so-so career and did just "that much more" that was needed to move up or move out, then by all means deny the second chance and and see what your options are as a supervisor/commanding officer.
Should that officer have a spotless and exemplary career to that point, I would say he is certainly a candidate for a second opportunity. If that officer had a so-so career and did just "that much more" that was needed to move up or move out, then by all means deny the second chance and and see what your options are as a supervisor/commanding officer.
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We need the technical ranks back. A lot E4s don't want the leadership responsibility but are great team members and very technical. Is combat support MOSs this is just fine ie Signal. Many signaliers are techies but clare not good leaders yet we force them to NCO ranks where they fail. As for Officers, well, ya kinda have to lead and sadly many couldn't lead a horse to water.
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This is why the Air Force needs Warrant Officers and the Army needs the specialist ranks as high as is practical. Everyone needs the opportunity for advancement but not all for leadership.
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Why were they relived? Was it because one of their Soldiers did something stupid, because that happens too much.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Very good question. The Stars and Stripes article only mentioned "a loss of confidence in the commanders’ abilities to lead their units in the best interest of the Air Force...this action was more about leadership style and organizational climate" than an isolated or multiple adverse actions taken by subordinates. That's why I point to my semi-hypothetical subject's lack of competence in interpersonal and leadership skills as well as the technical realms.
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Being relieved of Command is an authoritarian act devoid of due process. Commanders are given the authority to relieve subordinate commanders for any reason. Being forcibly discharged from the Service REQUIRES due process and a formal determination of the character of service.
So my answer is no, simply being relieved of command should not, in and of itself, prevent an officer from "being allowed" to serve.
So my answer is no, simply being relieved of command should not, in and of itself, prevent an officer from "being allowed" to serve.
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I think it depends on what happened. If they were relieved just because they were seen as unfit not any negative action then yes let them serve. If for instance their leadership was something like intimidation on the unit then I don't think they should still be able to serve.
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Once that OER hits, it should work itself out in the next promotion board. What the real question is, what were they relieved for? If it was lack of integrity, criminal conduct, ethical misconduct, abuse of subordinates etc then the appropriate action should follow. Depending on circumstances they may get a show cause OER that will force them out. By ousted, I assume relieved. If they were changed early as an expedient, that is s way different. The blah OER will hit but take longer.
If it was because they rose to their level of incompetence; vice illegal, unethical, immoral; then there is a tough senior rater conversation that needs to happen to talk potential. The senior rater is in the best position to have this discussion. Command is almost exclusively one and done at each level. If we are talking an O3 relieved as a company commander, they are unlikely to get another shot under that same Brigade leadership. If they are O5/O6 then das ist alles. I can't imagine a relief for cause that wouldn't result in follow on action. Perhaps the other shoe hasn't dropped yet and he requires temporary warehousing commensurate with his rank.
People will hang on for a variety of reasons. Understanding their inner motivation may shed light on their persistence. The "one more year" to go with 22 or 24; they hang around until they chase them out because the gig is good $; lingering until the leadership rotates, hoping for another shot; waiting on one more board (counter productive in this case); or refusing to retire due to impending divorce have been reasons people cite for hanging on when they are clearly done.
If it was because they rose to their level of incompetence; vice illegal, unethical, immoral; then there is a tough senior rater conversation that needs to happen to talk potential. The senior rater is in the best position to have this discussion. Command is almost exclusively one and done at each level. If we are talking an O3 relieved as a company commander, they are unlikely to get another shot under that same Brigade leadership. If they are O5/O6 then das ist alles. I can't imagine a relief for cause that wouldn't result in follow on action. Perhaps the other shoe hasn't dropped yet and he requires temporary warehousing commensurate with his rank.
People will hang on for a variety of reasons. Understanding their inner motivation may shed light on their persistence. The "one more year" to go with 22 or 24; they hang around until they chase them out because the gig is good $; lingering until the leadership rotates, hoping for another shot; waiting on one more board (counter productive in this case); or refusing to retire due to impending divorce have been reasons people cite for hanging on when they are clearly done.
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MAJ Frank Polzin it really depends on how the relief was made. Some Officers don't get all the counseling and paperwork together the way it should be in order to get the potentially substandard officer out of the service. A lack of technical competence may or may not be indicative of said officers abilities without further details but I'm not gonna try to go down that route. I'm aware of some interesting cases and some instances where officers survived what other never would. In the ideal world that Officer that you mentioned should be strongly urged if not forced to leave and start another line of work.
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An O-4 has "tenure" for lack of a better word. Short of legal proceedings, an O-4 is allowed to continue on active duty until they reach 20 years. Officers who have lost command or had other similar problems are usually passed over. Second pass over forces one out, making room for juniors to move up.
Not all passed-over officers have done anything wrong. Most are forces out due to lack of billets in higher ranks. The pyramid gets smaller. Someone has got to go.
Not all passed-over officers have done anything wrong. Most are forces out due to lack of billets in higher ranks. The pyramid gets smaller. Someone has got to go.
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LTC Jason Mackay
LTJG Richard Bruce if they were relieved for cause, that will likely force them out. If they changed command early to avoid "messiness" , different kettle of fish.
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