Posted on May 28, 2014
Should Army and Marines (or components of) consolidate?
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Think objectively. Traditions, camaraderie aside. Both are somewhat similarly more combat-oriented than USN or USAF. Answer practically without putting down either one of them.
PS: Yes, some are taunting about USN and USAF consolidation or Air Force return to Army Air Corps. My take on that if it's practical, lessen bureaucracy, and make for a smoother communications pipeline amongst the DoD components, why not? Again, camaraderie and traditions aside for a min.
PS: Yes, some are taunting about USN and USAF consolidation or Air Force return to Army Air Corps. My take on that if it's practical, lessen bureaucracy, and make for a smoother communications pipeline amongst the DoD components, why not? Again, camaraderie and traditions aside for a min.
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 1533
I'm going to try and answer this objectively. If I get emotional, lemme know.
As a whole? No; America would lose capabilities and a force that doesn't require congressional approval to utilize. The Marine Corps is different than the other services in the sense that IOT use big Army/Air Force/Navy for conventional warfare, it requires an act of congress. The Marine Corps has duties that, according to Title 10, "the President may direct." That broad based authority is not applied to the other armed forces of the United States of America. The ability to mobilize a military formation to take care of emergency situations in other countries, or other duties like Marine Security Guard or the Security Forces Regiment would have to be rethought in utilization by other services.
Partially? Yes, but it'd reshape how the Corps and other services operate and are utilized: this would likely take out units from the Marines and consolidate into other services, and bring in units from other forces, not to mention take away national resources in terms of mission capability. Here's a scenario to think about: suppose the Marines were to transform from a general purpose amphibious force in readiness to a amphibious raid force, specializing in commando missions.
The Corps could effectively get rid of several units not required for a commando force...but how would this look? How would this start? From boot camp. Following the model of the Royal Marines Commando, immediately following boot camp, Marines would be required to go through weapons training, tactics training, commando training & fieldcraft, then a commando qualification/tests. The only personnel not required to go through the commando training at SOI are those in the Marine Band. All basic MOS training at SOI would be consolidated into the commando course; fully qualifying Marines to perform in several duties normally done by separate MOSes. Those who cannot make it are either recycled or separated. As soon as this is completed, a Marine can go to any Commando (size of a battalion) and deploy. If further training is required in specialty MOSes, the Marine must already have contracted for that position. Infantry (Commando) Marines are given the option to go to a specialty combat arms course such as BRC or Scout Sniper. The Marine Corps would keep it's Divisions, but each unit would be re-designated as a Commando Unit.
What does this leave out? Embarkation could be conducted by the Army and Navy, and basic, non-combat oriented duties can go to the Navy for utilization, for example. Marine Aviation duties would get consolidated into the big 3 services.
Who does this leave out? Non-combat arms personnel that aren't utilized in direct support. This transformation would bleed out several current Marines who couldn't pass the commando tests if they wanted to be retained in the Corps.
Who does this bring in? Maybe the 75th Ranger Regiment, 82nd & 101st Airborne, and 10th Mountain Division. Maybe no one.
What would this really accomplish? Nothing but a financial, logistical, clerical, dissent-amongst-the-ranks-inducing nightmare. The movement and retraining of personnel, especially at that scale, would be an extremely expensive endeavor. Due to responsibilities of enlisted personnel from Cpl-GySgt, any consolidation to other services would require a paygrade increase (Compare FM 3-21.8 to any Marine Corps doctrine in regards to roles and responsibilities of ranks and you'll see what I mean: SSgts [E-6] in the Marines are responsible for a platoon of 39 not counting a Corpsman, RTO, FO, or other support; a SFC [E-7] in the Army is responsible for a platoon of 36 not counting support personnel, for example). As it stands right now, the culture of the Marine Corps reflects in the very paperwork that allows Marines to conduct operations; most SOPs, guidance, marching orders, use, and law would have to be rewritten. Additionally, the non-combat capabilities of MAGTFs in deployed scenarios would also decrease, leaving policy makers and decision makers without previously known, readily available resources at their disposal.
If America is really going to consider such a task, there's an awful lot to consider, and a transformation that'd take billions of dollars and man-hours to complete in order to be done correctly. It's hard to imagine that America can afford to take up such a task.
As a whole? No; America would lose capabilities and a force that doesn't require congressional approval to utilize. The Marine Corps is different than the other services in the sense that IOT use big Army/Air Force/Navy for conventional warfare, it requires an act of congress. The Marine Corps has duties that, according to Title 10, "the President may direct." That broad based authority is not applied to the other armed forces of the United States of America. The ability to mobilize a military formation to take care of emergency situations in other countries, or other duties like Marine Security Guard or the Security Forces Regiment would have to be rethought in utilization by other services.
Partially? Yes, but it'd reshape how the Corps and other services operate and are utilized: this would likely take out units from the Marines and consolidate into other services, and bring in units from other forces, not to mention take away national resources in terms of mission capability. Here's a scenario to think about: suppose the Marines were to transform from a general purpose amphibious force in readiness to a amphibious raid force, specializing in commando missions.
The Corps could effectively get rid of several units not required for a commando force...but how would this look? How would this start? From boot camp. Following the model of the Royal Marines Commando, immediately following boot camp, Marines would be required to go through weapons training, tactics training, commando training & fieldcraft, then a commando qualification/tests. The only personnel not required to go through the commando training at SOI are those in the Marine Band. All basic MOS training at SOI would be consolidated into the commando course; fully qualifying Marines to perform in several duties normally done by separate MOSes. Those who cannot make it are either recycled or separated. As soon as this is completed, a Marine can go to any Commando (size of a battalion) and deploy. If further training is required in specialty MOSes, the Marine must already have contracted for that position. Infantry (Commando) Marines are given the option to go to a specialty combat arms course such as BRC or Scout Sniper. The Marine Corps would keep it's Divisions, but each unit would be re-designated as a Commando Unit.
What does this leave out? Embarkation could be conducted by the Army and Navy, and basic, non-combat oriented duties can go to the Navy for utilization, for example. Marine Aviation duties would get consolidated into the big 3 services.
Who does this leave out? Non-combat arms personnel that aren't utilized in direct support. This transformation would bleed out several current Marines who couldn't pass the commando tests if they wanted to be retained in the Corps.
Who does this bring in? Maybe the 75th Ranger Regiment, 82nd & 101st Airborne, and 10th Mountain Division. Maybe no one.
What would this really accomplish? Nothing but a financial, logistical, clerical, dissent-amongst-the-ranks-inducing nightmare. The movement and retraining of personnel, especially at that scale, would be an extremely expensive endeavor. Due to responsibilities of enlisted personnel from Cpl-GySgt, any consolidation to other services would require a paygrade increase (Compare FM 3-21.8 to any Marine Corps doctrine in regards to roles and responsibilities of ranks and you'll see what I mean: SSgts [E-6] in the Marines are responsible for a platoon of 39 not counting a Corpsman, RTO, FO, or other support; a SFC [E-7] in the Army is responsible for a platoon of 36 not counting support personnel, for example). As it stands right now, the culture of the Marine Corps reflects in the very paperwork that allows Marines to conduct operations; most SOPs, guidance, marching orders, use, and law would have to be rewritten. Additionally, the non-combat capabilities of MAGTFs in deployed scenarios would also decrease, leaving policy makers and decision makers without previously known, readily available resources at their disposal.
If America is really going to consider such a task, there's an awful lot to consider, and a transformation that'd take billions of dollars and man-hours to complete in order to be done correctly. It's hard to imagine that America can afford to take up such a task.
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The answer that you are seeking is "no". The United States Army and the Marine Corps are two distinct entities. The National Security Act of 1947 as amended is the controlling military legislation of the United States. This act provides the establishment of integrated policies and procedures for the departments, agencies, and functions of the Government relating to the National Security. In short this Act provides for three military departments, separately organized, for the operation and administration of the Army, the Navy (including naval aviation) and the "United States Marine Corps", and the Air Force, with their assigned combatant and service components. Provides for the coordination and direction of the three military departments and four services under the Secretary of Defense. Provides for strategic direction of the Armed Forces, for their operation under unified control, for establishment of unified and specified commands, and for the integration of the four services into an efficient team of land, naval, and air forces. This unification has been accomplished by giving the Secretary of Defense authority and virtual military control over the four services, although the Secretary does not administer directly the Departments of the Army, Navy, and Air Force. Please read the National Security Act of 1947. This is a statutory law that was put into affect by Congress. This is why the answer is a NO.
J.K.Kaupe, Jr.
J.K.Kaupe, Jr.
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Christ sake give it up, NO they should not, both branches have different duty's let them do what they been doing for the last 240 years and get off the subject. Marine Corps is a fast response unit , like using a small marble to brake up the bunch then use your big marbles to finish it off and keep it the way we want it., first its, don't ask don't tell. then genders and even boy scouts . damn politicians keep your hand's out of the military, a solider loves his army just as a marine loves his corps. you want to keep this country safe, get the hell out of the military's way.
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The Army, Navy, Air Force each have their missions and the Marine Corps has its mission. Leave things as they are. G.D. Nielsen MSgt. USMC (Ret.)
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The Army has its mission and the Marine Corps has theirs. Leave it alone.
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CWO3 (Join to see)
Now let's not be so serious. We all served for one reason or another and whatever service we choose to serve we do are upmost best to our service and sister services. I'm proud that you and I can recognize this because we only have a few who are willing to serve their Country and defend her from foreign or domestic. So let's all come together as One Team so we can stop all this nonsense of wars and rumors of wars.
Semper Fidelis,
James
Semper Fidelis,
James
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For some reason this question keeps popping up.....And as a Marine, I always said no. But, the only way I see this working, is if all the standards were raised to Marine Standards, including ALL TRAINING, TEST SCORES, AND PT STANDARDS.....That's the only way it'll work. But the reality is that most people in the Army wouldn't be able to meet Marine Standards. That's why they're in the Army in the first place.....So the Army and Liberals would scream "That's not fair that the Standards are so High", they'd tank the Standards so EVERYONE COULD EASILY GET IN, and our Military Fighting Force would be comprised of Snot-Nosed Mouth Breathers...Which, in my estimate, is exactly what the Left wants, a lot of dead American bodies....Hell, that's why they keep lowering the standards so women can get into all the MOS's
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Cpl Dale Winans
SFC James Thibault - First of all, The Marines would have to LOWER our standards to be able to fit in with the Army. But seriously, the Marine Corps has an entirely different mission from the Army, and consolidating would never work. And besides, Marines work hard to earn that title, and I doubt you will ever find one willing to give it up.
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Cpl Ryan Brown
Seriously? First if they did raise the bar to Ranger standards the vast majority of the Army would fail.
The same old schict about not being able to think as an individual? The same one uninformed civilians use almost daily? I would expect more from an E7.
Lastly it could be (and I know this is a radical concept) that those Marines are decorated because they went above and beyond.
The same old schict about not being able to think as an individual? The same one uninformed civilians use almost daily? I would expect more from an E7.
Lastly it could be (and I know this is a radical concept) that those Marines are decorated because they went above and beyond.
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Cpl Robert Masi
That's the Point. If the 2 Branches merged, you'd need to dump probably a majority of the Army Personnel in order to keep capabilities equally high.
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SSG John M Jacobson Sr
Now you all are starting to get petty. We are all brothers fighting for the same thing. Leave well enough alone. It has worked just fine the way it for the last 241 years.
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Not only no, but F*CK NO!!!
Each were designed to fulfill a purpose, anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to mix the frosting into the cake batter and then bake it and see what they get!
Each were designed to fulfill a purpose, anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to mix the frosting into the cake batter and then bake it and see what they get!
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