Posted on Sep 18, 2014
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
205K
1.5K
491
21
21
0
7974309046 07837d37a4 o
We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?

FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.

I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?

What say you RP?
Posted in these groups: Customs and courtesies logo Customs and CourtesiesImages 20 NCOs
Avatar feed
See Results
Responses: 180
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
SPC Signal Support Systems Specialist
0
0
0
i think as we move to a garrison army discipline is very important .. standing at parade rest should be mandatory for anyone who is one rank above you e.g. e-1 parade rest to an e-2 so on and so forth the reason is to keep junior enlisted as well as ncos in the habit of leading by example and enforcing the standard.. should an e-4 be adamant about getting and e-3 and below in parade rest... no. i am an e-4 and e-3 and below stand at parade rest for me purely out of respect of my character
(0)
Comment
(0)
PFC Zanie Young
PFC Zanie Young
>1 y
Sorry Specialist, I don't agree. Privates are privates, even at PFC. We don't stand at parade rest for other privates or specialists because we are junior enlisted, not NCOs. That idea don't work well between Senior NCOs and Warrant officers because all officers are saluted by all enlisted personnel.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Military Police
1
0
1
One more reason the Army needs to get rid of that dumb ass rank. You want to be an NCO, act like it and earn Corporal Stripes.
(1)
Comment
(1)
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
SFC (Join to see) voted you up for fighting against the down vote
(0)
Reply
(0)
LTC Mark Gavula
LTC Mark Gavula
11 y
I can't believe senior NCOs saying that SPC is a dumb ass rank. Common sense dictates that not everyone wants to be a leader, or are ready to become a leader based on TIS. In combat units there is the rank of corporal for those Soldiers that have demonstrated exceptional leadership potential, and the platoon chain of command recommends to the company/troop/battery chain of command to laterally promote this guy. Then, I have to say this, isn't the rank of SGM a dumbass rank? Same Good Money as a CSM.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Military Police
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
Wow, voted down again? There are a lot of fans of the SPC rank, especially those that never wore it.
LTC Mark Gavula what you say is common sense is in essence advocating people merely collecting a paycheck rather than moving up and doing what the Army ultimately asked them to do, Lead and Train our soldiers. If a person does not want to be a leader they should re-evaluate why they joined the US Army, we are a profession of arms and that requires leaders. Like any profession you start at the bottom and work your way to a leadership position. If you choose not to then you are not doing what the job requires and should be made to leave, much like many NCO's and Officers are being asked to do these days.
You know very well there is a HUGE difference between the abilities and duties of a SPC and SGM. For one the SGM was selected by a board of seniors based on their leadership ability, performance and potential versus the SPC who merely had the requisite TIS/TIG and stayed out of trouble, much like junior officers are promoted.
If we never challenge our junior leaders they will never step up and it has always been my practice to empower those not showing leadership traits with duties that will draw out the leader in them.
Todays generation of soldiers are increasingly introverted and anti-social and were more often than not never challenged to be a leader until they joined the Army. It is MY DUTY to train those that will fill my boots and lead the future Army and hiding behind the "SHAM SHIELD" that the SPC rank is often referred to as will not cut it.
You don't want to lead that's fine, move over and make room for those that do and seek employment elsewhere.
(0)
Reply
(0)
LTC Mark Gavula
LTC Mark Gavula
11 y
SFC from Ft. Campbell. You are correct, I never wore the rank of specialist. You do make some great points. I know you agree there are those Soldiers who are SPCs and those who are stripe wearers who should not be NCOs aka leaders. There are Soldiers that enlist in the Army to serve their country with no intention of re-enlisting beyond their initial enlistment period who do not want to be an NCO. CSM Elder writes in his essay, The Short History of the Specialist Rank, that "the Specialist is in the normal career
progression for enlisted soldiers in between the career path of going from an apprentice enlisted soldier, to the journeymen role associated with noncommissioned officers." The apprentice enlisted Soldier is the time he/she is learning to be a Soldier, Soldier & MOS tasks and leadership. This is the time when the NCO's are coaching, teaching and mentoring. NCO's will evaluate the Soldiers potential and as you say if they don't possess the attitude, aptitude or where with all to learn his MOS skills and develop into a leader the NCOs counsel in writing and recommend he or she should not re-enlist and find employment elsewhere. If that Soldier possess the requisites to become a solid leader than promote to corporal and develop him or her.

In closing, I have to say, that everyone that endorses Pvts, PFCs to stand at parade rest for specialists when you get in a position to influence policy, SOP or improve upon the regulation make it so because it is not required IAW the big A Army. Overall, I now grow weary of this discussion.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
0
0
0
That Specialist was wrong. That he demanded this of PFCs on down only reflects why that Soldier was NOT an NCO.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SPC Randy Torgerson
SPC Randy Torgerson
11 y
Thats all well and good but when I was in an infantry unit we didn't even have corporals. All E-4's were SPC 4.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC Randy Torgerson
SPC Randy Torgerson
11 y
I mean in my company... not sure about the battalion..
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
irrelevant. You stand at parade rest for NCOs, which Specialists are not.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
If that SPC is a team leader, then yes.
SSG Squad Leader
SSG (Join to see)
11 y
I do not think that it matters at that level unless the PFC is being disrespectful to the SPC.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
SGT(P) William Kesler , The FM does not make a distinction of "if the SPC is a team leader". It specifies NCOs.

However, that does not preclude the CSM of a unit requiring
that PFCs on a team doing that for a SPC who is a Team Leader. However, I would suggest making that SPC a CPL to keep from running into that kind of issue.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
If that SPC was a team leader then he should be a corporal. So the Company needs to make a decision, give him stripes or tell him to sit down.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SSG Aircraft Mechanic
0
0
0
Should a SPC salute a 2LT?
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Aircraft Mechanic
SSG (Join to see)
11 y
SFC (Join to see) , so the 2LT should salute the SPC??
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
SSG (Join to see) , nah... Then that SPC would go around making Junior Enlisted members stand at parade rest! LOL
(1)
Reply
(0)
SSG Aircraft Mechanic
SSG (Join to see)
11 y
It's all a vicious circle!
(1)
Reply
(0)
PFC Zanie Young
PFC Zanie Young
>1 y
Wisely staying out of that conversation...
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Kevin McCulley
0
0
0
Yeah, only if 2LTs salute 1LTs.. damnit.. why did you have to think about that before me!
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Kevin McCulley
SSG Kevin McCulley
11 y
Honestly, as someone who had to do it.... meh.. Pretty much all Specialists in my Infantry Battalion were treated as trainee NCOs. They technically should have been converted to Corporals due to the billets they were holding but people get lazy about that paperwork stuff. So, knowing the fact that they were in a team leader (NCO) billet, should be a corporal anyway, and would probably be a SGT before we came home from Iraq, it didn't bug me.

I guess it is kind of like saluting cadets.... except the specialist has actually accomplished something. :) Oh.. important caveat. The only Privates who stood at parade rest for each Specialist were that Specialist's rated subordinates. As in, that Specialist conducted monthly counseling with the Private. Specialists could smoke Privates, though playing with Privates that weren't yours would still get you reported to someone as it always does. :)
(0)
Reply
(0)
SSG Kevin McCulley
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Unit Supply Specialist
0
0
0
Edited 11 y ago
The Spc. still out ranks lower enlisted and should practice proper Custom and Courtesies. Reason I say this is because a specialist is starting to learn to be in a leadership position.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SPC Unit Supply Specialist
SPC (Join to see)
11 y
Its a sign of respect for Rank.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
First, it is "Junior Enlisted". Not lower.
Second, it is true that many SPCs exhibit leadership by way of their position or just the nature of their job. However, As outlined in the FM 7-21.13 proper Customs and Courtesies do not authorize a SPC to require other Junior Enlisted to stand at Parade Rest.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SGT Mark Sullivan
SGT Mark Sullivan
11 y
I have seen SPC abuse power before, not necessarily a good idea, unless he/she has been designated as the second in charge. If that is the case, they should request permission to wear CPL Rank. I have seen this done in Quartermaster Units. Then they would truly be an NCO, and have to have the respect of an NCO. This was brought up when I was in, that if a SPC was in charge, or in a leadership role, they should be authorized to wear CPL stripes
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC Unit Supply Specialist
SPC (Join to see)
11 y
I understand completely, on Both points. No they are not required too. I was just implying that it depended on the situation. But for the most part I completely agree.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Cpl Chris Rice
0
0
0
I am not into it, I was a LCpl with a deployment, and sometimes acted in a leadership role before I was promoted, and I kind of always saw myself as the Senior Fellow in a partnership with the others in my peer group rather than the Superior/Subordinate relationship; think more big brother, and less mommy or daddy. The way I see it Junior Enlisted have enough people to stand funny for, they need somebody with some wisdom, and without the formalities.

I’ll attribute the Lts to being well Lts and say they are probably just shaking off the rookie stupid still.
(0)
Comment
(0)
PFC Zanie Young
PFC Zanie Young
>1 y
You Marines got it good...
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Med Tech Student
0
0
0
My spc told me to go to front leaning rest and then he says "at ese" and I stand at parade rest to adress him
(0)
Comment
(0)
COL Thom Brooks
COL Thom Brooks
11 y
OK. My last response to this extraordinarily important dialogue. 1. Any SPC that demands that a private of any grade stand at parade rest needs to be in the Commander's office, at which time he needs appropriate counseling. 2. NCO's are in charge--that is their responsibility. They deserve the respect of a junior Soldier standing at Parade Rest while being addressed, unless the NCO or Officer indicates "at ease." We have the corporal rank throughout the Army. In fact, in my over 29 years of Service, I have seen this rank return. It is an important rank, as it indicates that the Commander feels this Soldier is a positive candidate for NCO and the Soldier has strong potential for leadership. Notwithstanding the significantly important culture of the US Marines, CPL is a very junior NCO, and should step lightly on how he/she manages his/her junior Soldiers. If a private immediately goes to parade rest, the CPL can be assured it was not their rank, but their personal respect. Does the CPL deserve to have a private of any grade come to parade rest when they address them? ABSOLUTELY. The CPL is an NCO. Thanks to all of you for this incredible dialogue. The Army has a very special culture, and it is all about making sure that in a war environment the leader can lead and be successful. Discipline is not about I am more "special" than you, but about leaders being deservedly chosen and being given the "authority" to assure that they are safely followed. I am incredibly proud of my father who retired as a MSG(P). He tought me all the values of respect, not just that of rank, but that of how you handle your subordinates. It is all about mentorship. Senior NCOs, mentor your junior NCOs. Don't make a mockery of SPCs who are perhaps "abusing" their power. Teach them privately that rank is important, but ultimately respect is earned. I would rather go to war with Soldiers that respect me because I earned it than depend on Soldiers who respect me only for my rank.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CSM William Johnson
0
0
0
I agree that a SPC is not an NCO, but when I came in the army many moons ago it was something we all did. I'm sure it depended on what unit you were assigned to I.E. 82d, 101st, Ranger BN. The SPC didn't go around telling junior Soldiers to get at parade rest, they just did it out of respect. I think it also depends on if the SPC is in a leadership position, not uncommon in combat arms...CW5 Baker, I apologize if you aren't treated the way you should, as a CW5 you definitely have my respect.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SFC Intelligence Analyst   Atl
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
CSM William Johnson , That was my experience. The SPC was an 11B and I was in an Infantry Battalion. I just stood a Parade Rest for him and drove on.
(0)
Reply
(0)
CSM William Johnson
CSM William Johnson
11 y
Its not about a power trip, it is about respect and discipline. I would hope the SPC, Soldier would do the same.
(0)
Reply
(0)
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
11 y
While I personally never had any PFC or below stand at Parad Rest when I was a SPC it doesnt surprise me that some E4's would need to lock someone up for a good reason. At then end of the day (when I was in) if you were outranked you obeyed no questions asked. But this was combat arms so Im sure different units behave differently and have different norms.

My son is now serving (in my old unit even 1/19SFG) and he is a new NCO, he tells me some Soldiers litterally roll thier eyes and ignore NCO's in his Unit. I told him if a subordinate ever pulled that crap to strait up council him in writing! Its the Army not Club Med damit.

Disciplin in my opinion means the difference between life and death and those who cant take it seriously should consider a different line of work. But again, just my opinion.
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

How are you connected to the military?
  • Active Duty
  • Active Reserve / National Guard
  • Pre-Commission
  • Veteran / Retired
  • Civilian Supporter