Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 180
We had a private E-2 in my unit disrespect and refuse to follow orders and my PSG instituted a rule of standing at parade rest for any one of higher rank than you. It was put into place to teach said SM a lesson but to me it has only turned into a joke amongsts those of lower rank and it embarrases the specialists because the get made fun of by the rest of the unit. As a caviat I believe standing at parade rest ruins comradeship and can hurt unit integrity. If I'm being addressed by someone in a position of authority who is currently using that authority of course I will show the proper respect by standing at parade rest. If I'm always at parade rest for you though. It makes any conversation awkward in my opinion.
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PFC Glen King
In my unit a PCF better lock it up for a Spec. I had a detail as a PFC and an E5 was in it. He stood at parade rest to me. Of course I did to him. He was trying to get into the Ranger Regiment, and I was in. It's a case of courtesy and respect. Try not standing at parade rest for the E4 Mafia with the tab. Have fun with that one.
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Hell no... A Spc is not I am authority position, but at the same time a Spc can drop a Pvt. as long as they do the PT with them. Potato pototo
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I never forced any PFCs to stand at parade rest to talk to me. However, I remember a 1SG telling a PFC he was supposed to do so and then yelling at me for not enforcing it.
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SFC (Join to see)
That is interesting... In my experience, when a 1SG sees two E4 and below standing around/talking to each other, he is looking for an NCO to give them something to do.
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SPC James Mcneil
That's my experience too. But since I was giving him instructions, I guess the 1SG wanted him to be at parade rest. I was more interested in making sure he understood the instructions.
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So today i had a soldier that came up to saying i had to stand a parade rest for a specialist Team Leader and when i told them that in FM 7-21.13 chapter 4 it states NCO's was i wrong for pulling the FM on this team leader and PFC Yes or NO and why???
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SPC (Join to see)
There's a phrase in there "unless otherwise directed". And the fact that a leader can add to a standard but not take away. Unless an order is illegal, immoral, or unethical, it shouldn't be questioned to begin with.
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
never been directed or in policy... it was a soldier that got mad because i told him to stop fucking with my soldier and his team leader got mad that i told him that and then the soldier tried to tell me to go to parade rest to his team leader while eatin at the DFAC on top of that eating
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SPC (Join to see)
Book answer: pull him aside and inform him of regulation.
What I prolly would've done: call him out in public and make him look like a jack ass.
What I prolly would've done: call him out in public and make him look like a jack ass.
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SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA
The FM only tells you that you HAVE TO stand at PR for an NCO.
It doesn't say you can not do it for an enlisted soldier that outranks you.
GMA all day.
It doesn't say you can not do it for an enlisted soldier that outranks you.
GMA all day.
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Specialists are not NCOs, therefore, PFCs only stand at parade rest before CPLs and above. I never stood at parade rest in front of any specialist while I was in nor I was required to.
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I could understand where CW2 Evans is coming from. Authority by position, rather than rank. But overall I don't see how this would be helpful at all... You give the PFC a false sense of authority over his/her "subordinate."
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1SG (Join to see)
You realize that I'm not being serious with the question, more making fun of the whole Lt salutibg Lt/ pfc parade rest for Spc discussions
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I abstain from voting. I know what the reg says... but each unit is like its own microcosm. In some units, a SPC is just a troop that gets to be the not-NCOIC of a BS detail. In other units, a SPC is often times a team leader and many of them are just waiting on points in order to get promoted. I've been in units where you at least stood at ease for talking to anyone of a higher rank, and I've been in units where half the time when an officer wasn't around, Sergeants said "call me Joe".
I'm sure you've all seen (or been) that soldier that shows up to a unit and the guys who've been there for a while think "man this guy's a real hard-ass" because that person is adhering to standards that were stricter in another unit. My approach on showing up to a new unit has always been "Remember your bearing and when in doubt, stick to the reg. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut and try to blend in. Do what everyone else is doing."
I'm sure you've all seen (or been) that soldier that shows up to a unit and the guys who've been there for a while think "man this guy's a real hard-ass" because that person is adhering to standards that were stricter in another unit. My approach on showing up to a new unit has always been "Remember your bearing and when in doubt, stick to the reg. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut and try to blend in. Do what everyone else is doing."
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Tim Everett fair enough. In my personal experience, it was a SPC who tried to tell me that it was in the Reg. that I HAD to do it. He lied. And could have even been mislead himself at one point. I think the important part of this discussion is that Soldiers should read regulations and doctrine. It is a great way to develop professionally.
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SSG Tim Everett
SFC (Join to see) Absolutely not disputing that -- the regs are there for people to know, not just fall back on if they step out of line. In particular, SPCs should be "strongly encouraged" to know the regs if they want to put on stripes that number more than one.
As far as the SPC lying to you, I'm not sure how I would handle that. I was a pretty mouthy junior enlisted, so I probably can't be relied upon to properly ret-con an advice session.
As far as the SPC lying to you, I'm not sure how I would handle that. I was a pretty mouthy junior enlisted, so I probably can't be relied upon to properly ret-con an advice session.
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OMG! Sounds like a bunch of horse hooey to me. I did my time in the Navy and got to be a very senior E6 before calling it quits. It sucks when you stand there in your dress blues and look down the line and see that besides the Master Chief of the Command and the Senior Chief, you are the only one with gold on your sleeve. Means all those Chiefs had less time in the Navy then I did. As we used to say "I have skivvies that have been in the Navy longer than you".
Ooops The old sailor with the sea stories is emerging. I never stood at parade rest for anybody lower than an officer unless we were in a formation and were called to attention or some such by at least a Chief.
I also rarely got on a junior person's case for slouching around. Unless that was the problem. And yet somehow, as the senior E6 on board, I was getting stuff done and getting the lazy ass other E6s in line. "Hey, buddy, I know a GREAT bilge that needs scrubbing with a toothbrush" :D
So I don't think enlisted stand at parade rest while talking to a senior enlisted. Gawd the power trips are too big already. Of course on a submarine it was very much "I know where you sleep" kind of atmosphere.
Okay, no sailor goes without a sea story. One day an E-2 was having a really shitty day. He was mess cranking (working in the galley as a slave) and the idiot senior cook was just on his case. I went in to just get a cup of bug juice and he started yelling at me about making a mess. (not) I just stood there and let him rant and rave. When he took a breath I asked "You feel better now?" I then had him continue with his duties with just the smallest discussion of respect for senior petty officers. Then a chief pulls me into the goat locker (Chief's lounge). He told me I would never make chief if I didn't yell and scream at people. Wow. Told him if he was an example of being a chief I didn't want to be one. At that time I was more qualified than him, had 2 more years in than him, and my division of Electricians was doing far better work than his bunch. I, to this day, don't know why I never made Chief. lol Oh and I had to put him on report for assault not long after that when he jammed a donut in a junior enlisted man's face and I was the duty chief. Broke my heart. But he got off with a slap on the wrist.
Ooops The old sailor with the sea stories is emerging. I never stood at parade rest for anybody lower than an officer unless we were in a formation and were called to attention or some such by at least a Chief.
I also rarely got on a junior person's case for slouching around. Unless that was the problem. And yet somehow, as the senior E6 on board, I was getting stuff done and getting the lazy ass other E6s in line. "Hey, buddy, I know a GREAT bilge that needs scrubbing with a toothbrush" :D
So I don't think enlisted stand at parade rest while talking to a senior enlisted. Gawd the power trips are too big already. Of course on a submarine it was very much "I know where you sleep" kind of atmosphere.
Okay, no sailor goes without a sea story. One day an E-2 was having a really shitty day. He was mess cranking (working in the galley as a slave) and the idiot senior cook was just on his case. I went in to just get a cup of bug juice and he started yelling at me about making a mess. (not) I just stood there and let him rant and rave. When he took a breath I asked "You feel better now?" I then had him continue with his duties with just the smallest discussion of respect for senior petty officers. Then a chief pulls me into the goat locker (Chief's lounge). He told me I would never make chief if I didn't yell and scream at people. Wow. Told him if he was an example of being a chief I didn't want to be one. At that time I was more qualified than him, had 2 more years in than him, and my division of Electricians was doing far better work than his bunch. I, to this day, don't know why I never made Chief. lol Oh and I had to put him on report for assault not long after that when he jammed a donut in a junior enlisted man's face and I was the duty chief. Broke my heart. But he got off with a slap on the wrist.
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SFC (Join to see)
This topic is an outstanding take off to other issues we face where military discipline comes into question. It has been my experience that we place too much time focusing on image rather then mission. There is a common saying "Mission First Soldiers Always." I have never supported this concept as it should be, "Soldiers First Above All Else" as it is the Soldiers who do what it takes to accomplish the mission. The military is a corporation consisting of the Army, Marines, Navy, and Air Force. To make a corporation run like a well oiled machine you have to first create a cohesive team that shares the desire of one common goal. The little attention to detail things are what sidelines great things therefore standing at parade rest is first a sign of self discipline and next a demonstration of respect to the senior person. To earn the respect of others you must respect yourself and lead by example which mean you have to earn your subordinates respect, trust, and adoration. By doing things this way you get quality over requlatory back and forth as to who and who not you stand at parade rest for. End the debate as it is quite simple in you stand at attention for officers and parade rest for Enlisted leadership until told otherwise...remember rank does not define us and that leaders are not born. Leadership is learned and it is time for us to support ridding our ranks of toxic leaders!
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PO1 Donald Hammond
Interesting. In the Navy we did not ever stand at parade rest for NCOs. Unless ordered to do so because we were mouthing off too much. I never used it. If I needed somebody's full attention they were standing at attention. That was rare tho. Like putting them on report. Also rare. I guess the attitude in the Navy when I was in was there are 2 "classes" of sailor. Rag hats and khakis.
There were a lot of toxic "leaders" in the Navy (I imagine there still are) with no way to really get rid of them. Just wait them out because in the Navy you are going to have a full turnover about every 3 years.
There were a lot of toxic "leaders" in the Navy (I imagine there still are) with no way to really get rid of them. Just wait them out because in the Navy you are going to have a full turnover about every 3 years.
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I recently attended a drill weekend and ran across this situation. Some of my junior enlisted Soldiers were debating back and forth what was right. I informed them what it states in the FM (doctrine) and that we don't have any unit specific policy or directives. My explanation seemed to make sense to these troops, however, I still received some inquisitive looks.
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