Posted on May 28, 2016
Should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events?
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I am an atheist, but I also believe strongly in the right to practice your own religion freely. When it comes to ceremonies, I believe that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. I believe this because there are many different beliefs recognized by the government (atheism/agnosticism, satanism, Buddhism/Hinduism, etc...) that fall outside of the Christian spectrum, and having a Chaplin lead prayer before mandatory events forces non-believers and followers of different faiths to participate in a practice outside of their own. Is it just me, or should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events such as promotion/graduation ceremonies and commander calls to ensure religious freedom is enforced?
Atheism
Ceremony
Religion
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 102
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Prayer is a religious ritual, keyword: ritual. That's why bible study happens outside of work, because it's a non-profit organization that has no correlation with the military's objectives (to kill enemies of freedom).
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SrA Casey Ross
I find it disturbing that some of you people who took the oath to defend the Constitution really have no clue what it means. Its about individual LIBERTY, not liberty as long as the government approves.
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SMSgt Cary Baker
Good point SrA Ross, we all raised our right hand and swore an oath - "I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." This means you swore to protect religious freedom, and defend it with your life if necessary. Here is the US, and in the military, all branches are having a domestic issue in regards to religion. Bottom line: don't participate in prayer at a function if that's not your belief!! Stay seated quietly and wait for it to end.
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Religion is always a touchy subject. Their are so many that it is crazy, and each say it is THE religion. Being a minister I have found that you have to ask what religion they want to have spoken at their ceremony and go from there. The issue is that that the Chaplin leads a prayer before mandatory events is a hard one, they should try to leave it non -denominational. As the old saying goes "You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all the people all the time." Being Pagan I just fill in the blanks when someone is doing a "Christian" Prayer. There are so many other things to get upset about in this life that I just let this one roll off my back.
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I think that banning prayer during events (even non-religious ones) violates the rights of those who want to pray. I think it vioaltes their freedom of expression/speech as well as their freedom of religion. I don't think that someone's freedom OF religion infringes upon your freedom FROM religion unless they make you participate in the religion specifically. You standing there and remaining silent does not force you to participate in the religion, but having you recite the prayer or requiring you to perform some other action might.
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MSgt Jonathan Stump
except that what if I have a religion that is not being represented and I want it represented? Does that mean that you are going to include it? What if my prayer for my religions has me making a lot of noise, then what?
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SFC (Join to see)
MSgt Jonathan Stump
You can “what if” until the cows come home. Nothing would ever get done in the entire world if you put the burden of 100% on it. SrA James Cannon makes a valid point; what takes precedence when 2 equal “rights” conflict? Maybe a little common sense and compromise.
You can “what if” until the cows come home. Nothing would ever get done in the entire world if you put the burden of 100% on it. SrA James Cannon makes a valid point; what takes precedence when 2 equal “rights” conflict? Maybe a little common sense and compromise.
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As a fellow atheist, I think what you have written is very thoughtful, and to a certain extent I agree with you. As a Air National Guard First Sergeant. I fully understand the importance of religion on many peoples lives and thus should not be banned. However, my personal thoughts as an atheist is that many of the same servicemen and women who rely on the almost always Christian prayer at ceremonies would object to a prayer led by someone from another religion and that I would have a problem with.
In my civilian life, if someone wishes to pray before a school event, a local government event such as a City Council meeting etc., I do not have a problem with that: it is 5 minutes out of my life and I just keep quite and wonder if I left the toaster on. Again, though, these same people would object to a Muslim Imam conducting the opening prayer.
I guess I am a walking contradiction. I am not a card carrying atheist and have very little time for those who are and want to tear down religious monuments, take the 10 Commandments out of a City Hall etc. As long as the government does not MAKE or FORCE you to actually bow or pray to an entity or object, I really don't mind as the goal is to provide guidance to people which can benefit all. I LOVE Christmas, but not as a birth of the Messiah, I just like to the season, and when someone wishes me Happy Christmas I take it in the spirit it was intended, to wish me the best and not to make me believe in a birth.
In my civilian life, if someone wishes to pray before a school event, a local government event such as a City Council meeting etc., I do not have a problem with that: it is 5 minutes out of my life and I just keep quite and wonder if I left the toaster on. Again, though, these same people would object to a Muslim Imam conducting the opening prayer.
I guess I am a walking contradiction. I am not a card carrying atheist and have very little time for those who are and want to tear down religious monuments, take the 10 Commandments out of a City Hall etc. As long as the government does not MAKE or FORCE you to actually bow or pray to an entity or object, I really don't mind as the goal is to provide guidance to people which can benefit all. I LOVE Christmas, but not as a birth of the Messiah, I just like to the season, and when someone wishes me Happy Christmas I take it in the spirit it was intended, to wish me the best and not to make me believe in a birth.
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Maj John Bell
I think your assumption about acceptance of the prayer from another religion is inaccurate. To start, Christianity is not one large monolithic homogeneous body. There are many deeply held and vastly different doctrines within Christianity. Yet, we accept prayers, benedictions, and invocations from differing sects without objection. I have been to military functions where a Rabbi offered the blessing.
If I were you, I'd test your hypothesis. The next time your command is going to have a an appropriate function ask for an alternative to the standard Christian representation. I hope and believe that you will be pleasantly surprised.
If I were you, I'd test your hypothesis. The next time your command is going to have a an appropriate function ask for an alternative to the standard Christian representation. I hope and believe that you will be pleasantly surprised.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Sir, I would have to respectfully disagree with you slightly. I have discussed the prayer issue with my command (not my current command, but when I was deployed) as we did have access to Christian and Jewish chaplains. My question was that the Christian chaplain prayed at official events while the Rabbi did not. I was informed it was due to the majority of personnel being Christian (not sure how they knew that, but I accepted it as likely true). I have also attended civilian events where other religions have prayed as well as Christian prayers and it was indeed tolerated. However, I also heard the objections from members of the crowd when the Imam prayed and the Rabbi prayed. While it was definitely not the majority, in this country it does not take a majority to make others feel uncomfortable.
I have also been asked not to tell anyone that I am an atheist as it may be offensive to some (for the record, I do not push my opinion, I only mention it when there is a relevant discussion ongoing and I am asked for my opinion). While an atheist, I am also a defender of freedom of religion and push for religious access for all my people, and I am not putting down religion here in anyway.
I have also been asked not to tell anyone that I am an atheist as it may be offensive to some (for the record, I do not push my opinion, I only mention it when there is a relevant discussion ongoing and I am asked for my opinion). While an atheist, I am also a defender of freedom of religion and push for religious access for all my people, and I am not putting down religion here in anyway.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Most of the Christians I served with never obsessed over who prayed or what kind of prayer was said in their honor. When one of our Chalks left for Iraq, I Muslim Cleric came to us and prayed for them. It makes no difference. If they are obsessing over this, they are not mature as Christians and they need to become more comfortable in learning and educating themselves in other religions.
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God will be there no matter what. "Thank God this shit is almost over", "Thank God the Shirt did not catch me late for formation", you know that shit happens all day. Much love my brothers and sisters, Pastor T.
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No everyone has there way and path to religious freedom. Must have respect for all faiths. The US Military is a Christian Fighting Force. Remember Christian Soldiers. But to join in prayer of a not her faith is ok. Even if you undecided,atheist, agnostic, or even if you believe in Polytheism. It's all faith.
Have a great Memorial Day Weekend.
Steve (Trex) Monas
Have a great Memorial Day Weekend.
Steve (Trex) Monas
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SSgt Thomas Scott
Maj John Bell - You seem to have forgotten atheist. They do not believe in a god because no proof has been presented. Example being most people are atheist about Zeus. There is no proof of him being a god. Most atheists do not think there are any gods because none have been proven to be god.
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Maj John Bell
SSgt Thomas Scott - SPC Sayi had already rejected being called an atheist before my thread, but was not ready to wear the label of any mainstream sect. I listed some generic labels that were shy of being an Atheist.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Maj John Bell - sir, atheism and agnosticism address two separate issues. One can be an agnostic atheist. "Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact."
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Maj John Bell
Capt Gregory Prickett - I believe that to be a legitimate explanation of the combination of those two words. But my interpretation is that the two are mutually exclusive. An Atheist, does not need to tread into "unknowable in principle or currently known fact. The Atheist does not cede the possibility of proof of existence. An Agnostic falls in the spectrum of There may be a God(s) but "The proof is beyond comprehension to There may be proof, but I haven't seen it"
I assume this is in response to my thread to SSgt Scott. SPC Sayi, in an earlier thread denied being an Atheist but also denied falling within any sect. I offered variations of Agnostic, Theist, and Deist that might help him more easily explain his beliefs
I assume this is in response to my thread to SSgt Scott. SPC Sayi, in an earlier thread denied being an Atheist but also denied falling within any sect. I offered variations of Agnostic, Theist, and Deist that might help him more easily explain his beliefs
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Re-read the 1st amendment closely- Congress shall make no Law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. They had come from Europe where people had been persecuted for 100's of years over their religion and Nations had fought Wars also over religion- they saw what happened when a Nation had a "State Religion" and wanted no part of that. You as an atheist do not have to participate in prayers, but you do have to respect those who are praying- There is nothing in the 1st that says you can't pray if you don't include all religions- it says that the US shall have no "State Religion" and you can pray if you want or not pray.
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I think it's all or none. I have only ever seen Christian chaplains give invocations, etc.
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I never had a problem with it, I just kept drinking my beer and didn't bow my head. I don't have issues with people who say god bless or things like that. I don't believe there's an all powerful god in the sky because it goes against logic, but I said the lords prayer before missions because what could it hurt? I did get into a pissing match with an NCO one time when he told me I HAD to go to the chaplain for religious services when he stopped by our COP long story short I didn't go and nothing really happened.
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