Posted on Aug 29, 2017
Should the Army have a different promotion / rating system for each MOS?
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Personally I think it should, although I am aware it would probably be difficult to implement and maintain. I think the 'one size fits all' approach rarely works, and yes I understand that for junior NCOs the each MOS has different point requirements.
Promotions
Promotion Points
MOS
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 10
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Although I have been out of the game a while, I agree with you. I found that the promotion system by and far does not lend itself to promoting good leaders. It promotes folks based on what blocks they check. Too often have I seen folks that couldn't lead to save their lives get promoted. I think a promotion system based on one's actual leadership abilities would be better. Of course I really haven't the slightest idea on how to do that short of making incompetence a capital offense. That might work....lol
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Suspended Profile
How does one objectively measure leadership ability and incompetence?
Theoretically, the promotion system is based on merit and ability. There's really no other way to demonstrate these than...well, block checking, hitting your requirements.
Of course, there are incompetent leaders promoted-- but when that's the case, -why-? NCOER should reflect leadership ability, no? That seems to be the problem.
Theoretically, the promotion system is based on merit and ability. There's really no other way to demonstrate these than...well, block checking, hitting your requirements.
Of course, there are incompetent leaders promoted-- but when that's the case, -why-? NCOER should reflect leadership ability, no? That seems to be the problem.
SGT David T.
SGT Sean Goodrow - That's thing though. Leadership is more of an art than a science. It is near impossible to objectively evaluate something that is inherently subjective. Look at PT scores as an example. Take for instance one with a max PT score. Does that measure their leadership ability? My answer is no (I know some will disagree with me). All that tells me is they can do PT. I have seen numerous times where someone had a max PT score, but were horrible leaders. They checks all of their blocks, but still had no ability whatsoever.
I do not have any faith in the NCOER system at all. I was literally ordered to rate someone higher than they actually deserved. After that, I never put any stock in them. Honestly, I stopped even caring about mine because they were meaningless. I know the system has changed somewhat, so I am not sure how it is now.
I do not have any faith in the NCOER system at all. I was literally ordered to rate someone higher than they actually deserved. After that, I never put any stock in them. Honestly, I stopped even caring about mine because they were meaningless. I know the system has changed somewhat, so I am not sure how it is now.
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What are you trying to solve and how does your "suggestion" with no actual ideas to follow, solve the issue?
I was taught and followed the concept best I could for 28 years,
Never complain unless you are willing to identify the specific issue you want solved and have a workable solution to the complaint.
So far you have not identified the specific issue you want to solve.
Nor after doing that have you suggested a solution other than a hand wave "do it differently"
You may have a very valid point others agree with... What is it?
I was taught and followed the concept best I could for 28 years,
Never complain unless you are willing to identify the specific issue you want solved and have a workable solution to the complaint.
So far you have not identified the specific issue you want to solve.
Nor after doing that have you suggested a solution other than a hand wave "do it differently"
You may have a very valid point others agree with... What is it?
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SGT Randall Stanaway
SSG Livingston,
Unfortunately, the SQTs were before my time so I'm not personally familiar with being in the system, but yes something like that (based off of a quick reading about SQTs).
Unfortunately, the SQTs were before my time so I'm not personally familiar with being in the system, but yes something like that (based off of a quick reading about SQTs).
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - I think that it would be great to go back to something like that or add a MOS test as a block for promotions.
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SPC Robert Patrick
MAJ (Join to see) - Think about this way if you changed career fields on the civilian side would you expect as an individual new to that career field to be making the same amount as somebody who has been doing it for 10 years. No you would not. You would not expect to be paid as much as that individual until you have proven yourself to have the knowledge and experience in that field. Same can be applied to the military. You want reclass you get reduced from SSG to SGT and can pick up SSG when you have proven to have sufficient operational knowledge.
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Do you mean create a separate promotion system based on MOS Branch? For example, a different promoting standard for a Mechanic then say a Paralegal?
It's interesting and maybe it would work well idk, but what about the guys who transfer MOS?
It's interesting and maybe it would work well idk, but what about the guys who transfer MOS?
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SGT Randall Stanaway
Yes something like that. Also the problem with reclassing could potentially be addressed in a manner similar to how a reservist may lose rank when switching to active duty.
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I'm curious. What issues and concerns are you facing/seeing? What would be your recommended fix it plan?
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No.
This is not the Navy and it makes things over complicated and unfair.
I'll propose this instead. The army needs to just reinstate the old specialist system. Soldiers can specialize in their respective MOS and get paid base pay for each grade. If they work in a more technical MOS they can get paid accordingly. Leadership rank, SGT to SGM can be for those who are actual leaders and are good/evaluated as such. I think that would be a better system.
This is not the Navy and it makes things over complicated and unfair.
I'll propose this instead. The army needs to just reinstate the old specialist system. Soldiers can specialize in their respective MOS and get paid base pay for each grade. If they work in a more technical MOS they can get paid accordingly. Leadership rank, SGT to SGM can be for those who are actual leaders and are good/evaluated as such. I think that would be a better system.
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SPC Robert Patrick
1SG John Archer, I couldn't agree with this more. We do have individuals who are excellent leaders but not very proficient in the MOS and then we have individuals who are highly proficient but do not necessarily meet the requirements to be an NCO. Then we also have individuals who fit both billets. SQT's should most definitely be brought back and at a bare minimum how you score on that affect your promotion points even if we do not bring back the specialist ranks it would allow for a more balanced promotion system.
An NCO's first and foremost job is to train Soldiers and that includes both Basic Soldier Skills and MOS Specific skills. If an NCO cannot do both of those then I feel they are failing as a leader. It should not come down to the PFC or SPC to train every new Soldier that comes into a unit (personal experience).
An NCO's first and foremost job is to train Soldiers and that includes both Basic Soldier Skills and MOS Specific skills. If an NCO cannot do both of those then I feel they are failing as a leader. It should not come down to the PFC or SPC to train every new Soldier that comes into a unit (personal experience).
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Something to keep in mind is that someone recommends the Soldier to go before the promotion board. Not all MOSs work in a section specific to their MOS and/or are working outside of their MOS (i.e. low density MOSs). Should they be prevented from promotion opportunities when they do not have control over where they work? Between the first line supervisor and the Soldier, are plans/trainings being implemented in order to ensure the Soldier is maintaining proficiency in their skill level as well as the next skill level? I do not disagree that some tweeks could be made to improve the system but to provide a blanket fix for all MOSs could present some difficulty...unless, as previously mentioned, we bring back the SQTs. Just my two cents.
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Such a system would have serious problems with low density MOSs and Soldiers filing billets in staff positions.
For instance, I have moved up the ranks as a CBRN NCO, yet have done relatively little in this job over the years. But, I have become very developed in general NCO skills which as training, mentoring, and planning because of my time and experience in staff and leadership positions.
I am unsure what you are really proposing in your question, but I don't think evaluating and promoting on separate MOS criteria makes much sense, especially in situations like mine
For instance, I have moved up the ranks as a CBRN NCO, yet have done relatively little in this job over the years. But, I have become very developed in general NCO skills which as training, mentoring, and planning because of my time and experience in staff and leadership positions.
I am unsure what you are really proposing in your question, but I don't think evaluating and promoting on separate MOS criteria makes much sense, especially in situations like mine
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I am a fan of the system the Navy uses for testing before you are eligible for promotion. I would be up for that. The Army doesn't need to completely revamp the promotion system, but a few minor tweaks would work. On my E5 promotion board, I wasn't asked a single question about my MOS. On my E6 promotion board, one of the board members asked a ton of questions that related to my MOS. That board member was famous for asking MOS-related questions and I believe it made for a better board experience. I think every board should have MOS-related questions, at least until the Army implemented MOS-specific testing like the Navy.
I don't think the rating system needs to be MOS-specific. I could be wrong, but Character, Presence, Intellect, Leads, Develops, and Achieves seem to be categories that fit every Army MOS.
I don't think the rating system needs to be MOS-specific. I could be wrong, but Character, Presence, Intellect, Leads, Develops, and Achieves seem to be categories that fit every Army MOS.
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At this point I view that the rank structure is the issue. The system is built of the antiqued Idea of Noble Lords, Knights, and peasants. Hence you have your officers, NCOs, and lower enlisted. The government went and applied this to all branches, adjusting here and there. They also add officers on warrants instead of commission.
The military is no longer based on your lineage or what your parents did while they served.
A NCO is a leader, what is a someone in JAG or the supply cage leading. Spec ranks had a purpose but they were replaced by Warrent officers who are few and between, and sometimes over paid.
I think the focus should change to rebuilding the structure instead of repairing a patched together system.
Thoughts?
The military is no longer based on your lineage or what your parents did while they served.
A NCO is a leader, what is a someone in JAG or the supply cage leading. Spec ranks had a purpose but they were replaced by Warrent officers who are few and between, and sometimes over paid.
I think the focus should change to rebuilding the structure instead of repairing a patched together system.
Thoughts?
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Although I have been out of the Army for many years. The system needs revamping. I remember the days when promotion had to be distributed within Race, Male & Female, and then by MOS. Within my MOS it was very had to get promoted, very competitive with that said, I was working directly with a CW4. I remember to this day he called me into his office, as I was in the primary zone for SFC. He asked me if I wanted to be promoted to SFC yes of course. I said how can a promotion be guaranteed, he said because I'm your rater, and was due an SEER. Low and behold came out on the next list, with promotion 2 months later. Sounded fishy to me but it happened. So there are faults within the system. Not saying that I hadn't earned the promotion. I worked hard at being a good leader, supervisor and soldier.
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