Posted on Apr 6, 2014
Should the Army stop displaying the flag incorrectly?
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<P>Before anyone comments that it isn't displayed incorrectly, please hear me out! <BR></P>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>
Uniforms
DA Pam 670-1
Flags and Vexillology
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 38
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One more thing for someone to whine about. Riddle me this, do your orders dictate what you do, or does an a section of administrative law dictate what you do. A lot of things we do run contrary to administrative law and regulations, but we do them anyway. A lot of what we do has waivers for admin law and regulations, or we couldn't get our jobs done. Quit trying to stir the pot and do your job.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Yeah, it was a simple question from something like 4 years ago. I'm not, nor was I whining when I asked the question.
This is a topic that I stumbled on when I was asked by a family member. I simply wanted to give the best answer, and I thought I'd bring the question (with evidence that I had also researched it) to the RP community.
If you dislike that I asked the question, so be it. That is certainly your right.
However, to allege that I'm "stirring the pot" and not "doing my job", without any evidence other than this question is kind of a dick move. I suggest you act more like an adult.
This is a topic that I stumbled on when I was asked by a family member. I simply wanted to give the best answer, and I thought I'd bring the question (with evidence that I had also researched it) to the RP community.
If you dislike that I asked the question, so be it. That is certainly your right.
However, to allege that I'm "stirring the pot" and not "doing my job", without any evidence other than this question is kind of a dick move. I suggest you act more like an adult.
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SSG Lyle O'Rorke
Definitely sounds like your the one who needs to do their job. The backwards flag was and still is an idiotic thing to have on the uniform.
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"How many angels can dance on the head or a pin?"
Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.
I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D
Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.
I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D
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SPC Needham, I want to commend for your courage to bring this issue up. I appreciate that you took the time to research and present this in a logical, methodical approach. I will re-engage this issue.
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The reason given is the Union of the Flag is always facing the front. Look at the way US Flagged airlines have the representation of the Flag on their aircraft.
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So, if I ran fed in battle carrying the flag, which we did in our history, then it would appear backwards and thereby be in violation of the code!
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The blue star field will always be in a position of honor, as previously stated.
Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.
Top right if its moving forward.
You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.
Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.
Top right if its moving forward.
You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.
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I normally don't chime in on these... The display of the flag is very important and this is not just something that affects the Army. Check out any vehicle in the military inventory Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard...
This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms
It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.
It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.
This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms
It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.
It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.
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MAJ (Join to see)
For civilians, absolutely. It is a highly encouraged suggestion, but not following it will not get you in any legal hot water. This is what allows people to burn or stomp on flags as a form of protest, for example.
For government service in a designated uniform (military, police, fire rescue, etc.) I think it's actually enforceable, though since the code itself does not carry direct penalties I think the laws or practices of the component would need to address it more directly. I think for military, failure to abide by the uniform regulations is the worst it could be considered, and I have no idea if anyone has ever had UCMJ pulled out on them over that.
For government service in a designated uniform (military, police, fire rescue, etc.) I think it's actually enforceable, though since the code itself does not carry direct penalties I think the laws or practices of the component would need to address it more directly. I think for military, failure to abide by the uniform regulations is the worst it could be considered, and I have no idea if anyone has ever had UCMJ pulled out on them over that.
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