Posted on Apr 6, 2014
Should the Army stop displaying the flag incorrectly?
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<P>Before anyone comments that it isn't displayed incorrectly, please hear me out! <BR></P>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>
Uniforms
DA Pam 670-1
Flags and Vexillology
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 38
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If you really care about the flag and the US code, I recommend you stop whining about wearing a patch. Utilize your time and energy focusing on stopping the mutilation of our flag by "freedom of speech" protesters.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Considering that it is, in fact, their freedom of speech which is guaranteed and protected by the 1st Amendment to the Constitution that we both swore an oath to defend and protect, I'm okay with their mutilation of the flag.
That is not to say that it doesn't bother me, nor anger me. I assure you, I get pissed. However, a right is a right regardless of how I feel about it.
Also, flag mutilation, if memory serves me correctly, wasn't as big of a "thing" back when I asked this question, so this is a little irrelevant.
That is not to say that it doesn't bother me, nor anger me. I assure you, I get pissed. However, a right is a right regardless of how I feel about it.
Also, flag mutilation, if memory serves me correctly, wasn't as big of a "thing" back when I asked this question, so this is a little irrelevant.
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I should think what with our citizens burning/disrespecting our flag you'd have more pressing problems to address.
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Great debate, SSG(P) (Join to see) Great research and well thought out question. Now my simple answer is the patch is not an actual flag so I am not sure it applies.
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The way I explain it to people is like this: Get a pole, put old Glory on the pole at the top, and march forward. Which way do the stars travel? The stars move and point in the direction which you march forward.
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CPL Justin Buchman
That is the best answer I've heard yet. Just like hunting our prey. We travel up wind to the fight, never down wind to where they smell and hear you coming.
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SGT Josh Beers
That has been my response to this question in both the Military and now civilian LEO.
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The Good Idea Fairy is telling me that we should have an American flag patch on each shoulder with the canton facing forward.
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It's really too bad these dirt bags did not read the regulation before jumping into Normandy. They could have been somebody important, but instead they are wearing the flag the wrong way. Such a shame.
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LTC Robert Ryan
This would never get published in Soldiers magazine today...one guy is not wearing his helmet, and many are not using the chin strap...the shame the greatest generation must endure...lol
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
You would not wear chin strap with M-1 Helmet. Prolly the only reason their straps are loose is they're abn. Legs would have it strapped across the rear of helmet. you want it loose so that it comes off easily in case of the updraft from a blast. Otherwise it would break your neck. Also in case of a bullet strike, it MAY rotate a bit and cause the round to pass between liner and helmet. If strapped on it go through helmet, head and out the other side. Made it easier to get on and off. Remember, it is also a seat, a foot basin, a wash bucket, a coffee pot, etc
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CW3 Walter Goerner
That is the proper display of the U.S. flag regardless of what arm it is on. The field is on the left per U.S. Code.
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Let's just do it the easy way and wear it over our heart - that way if your saluting someone the flag is always in the right position for viewing - the hell with the way the rest of the world wants to wear theirs. Putting it on the arm in a position to not look like we are retreating is just nonsense anyway - we do tactical withdrawals in order to gain an upper hand when needed.
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This is a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation. The flag is to be in the position of honor, which would be our right shoulder, but then the flag looks as though it is retreating. If we wear the flag on our left shoulder then the star field is in the correct position but then the flag is not in the position of honor. There is no answer that is going to be 100% correct in this situation, so you have to compromise. For me, wearing the flag on the right shoulder is correct, since that puts the flag in the position of honor and where it would be if it were displayed on stage.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
The position of honor on for a flag on a lapel is the left lapel to be closest to the heart (US Code). It only makes sense to put the flag on the left shoulder as well.
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
Maj Zeski, Like I said, there will never be a 100% correct answer for this. It's six of one and half dozen of another. People are going to interpret this situation many different ways.
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One more thing for someone to whine about. Riddle me this, do your orders dictate what you do, or does an a section of administrative law dictate what you do. A lot of things we do run contrary to administrative law and regulations, but we do them anyway. A lot of what we do has waivers for admin law and regulations, or we couldn't get our jobs done. Quit trying to stir the pot and do your job.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Yeah, it was a simple question from something like 4 years ago. I'm not, nor was I whining when I asked the question.
This is a topic that I stumbled on when I was asked by a family member. I simply wanted to give the best answer, and I thought I'd bring the question (with evidence that I had also researched it) to the RP community.
If you dislike that I asked the question, so be it. That is certainly your right.
However, to allege that I'm "stirring the pot" and not "doing my job", without any evidence other than this question is kind of a dick move. I suggest you act more like an adult.
This is a topic that I stumbled on when I was asked by a family member. I simply wanted to give the best answer, and I thought I'd bring the question (with evidence that I had also researched it) to the RP community.
If you dislike that I asked the question, so be it. That is certainly your right.
However, to allege that I'm "stirring the pot" and not "doing my job", without any evidence other than this question is kind of a dick move. I suggest you act more like an adult.
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SSG Lyle O'Rorke
Definitely sounds like your the one who needs to do their job. The backwards flag was and still is an idiotic thing to have on the uniform.
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"How many angels can dance on the head or a pin?"
Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.
I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D
Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.
I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D
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SPC Needham, I want to commend for your courage to bring this issue up. I appreciate that you took the time to research and present this in a logical, methodical approach. I will re-engage this issue.
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The reason given is the Union of the Flag is always facing the front. Look at the way US Flagged airlines have the representation of the Flag on their aircraft.
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So, if I ran fed in battle carrying the flag, which we did in our history, then it would appear backwards and thereby be in violation of the code!
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The blue star field will always be in a position of honor, as previously stated.
Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.
Top right if its moving forward.
You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.
Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.
Top right if its moving forward.
You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.
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I normally don't chime in on these... The display of the flag is very important and this is not just something that affects the Army. Check out any vehicle in the military inventory Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard...
This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms
It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.
It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.
This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms
It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.
It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.
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MAJ (Join to see)
For civilians, absolutely. It is a highly encouraged suggestion, but not following it will not get you in any legal hot water. This is what allows people to burn or stomp on flags as a form of protest, for example.
For government service in a designated uniform (military, police, fire rescue, etc.) I think it's actually enforceable, though since the code itself does not carry direct penalties I think the laws or practices of the component would need to address it more directly. I think for military, failure to abide by the uniform regulations is the worst it could be considered, and I have no idea if anyone has ever had UCMJ pulled out on them over that.
For government service in a designated uniform (military, police, fire rescue, etc.) I think it's actually enforceable, though since the code itself does not carry direct penalties I think the laws or practices of the component would need to address it more directly. I think for military, failure to abide by the uniform regulations is the worst it could be considered, and I have no idea if anyone has ever had UCMJ pulled out on them over that.
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