Posted on Jan 25, 2017
Should the US military be used to enforce law and order and quell the protests against President Trump?
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Edit: I posted this as a little experiment. There was a similar discussion asking whether American soldiers would fire on American citizens due to the riots that were taking place. I had responded that the Posse Comitatus prohibited that, much like many of you did. However, I was unconvinced that most of the respondents "No's" had to do with an obligation to their fellow citizens and more to do with their dislike of the Obama administration. I hypothesized that it was the latter and posted this question to test that theory. Turns out you all pleasantly surprised me and proved me wrong. Thank you for that. I'm sure this post will continue to generate discussion though.
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 82
MSG Frederick Otero
Yep, that is true but it needs to be thought out carefully,it did not work out so well at Kent State but did so during Katrina.
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TSgt (Join to see)
Although the NDAA of 2012 declared everywhere US law has jurisdiction to be a "battlefield" and thus empowers the US Military to operate thereupon.
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SGT Randall Smith
You might declare this a battlefield but it will be a costly mistake. In my neighborhood there are quite a few Viet Nam vets and we are all armed. It would be hard to fire upon the uniform but not impossible.
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Posse comitatus prohibits use of military as LEO unless in emergencies or martial law. That said, is our military equipped and trained to handle a largest scale riot?
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CPT Jim Schwebach
1LT William Clardy , l../.et me clarify my post above. I was responding to the question regarding military training equipment in SPC George Rudenko 's post. He obviously understands Posse Comitatus and assumed the those requirements had been met("that said"). Although it wasn't questioned at the time, one has to assume that proper authorization existed to move the better part of an airborne brigade to deal with civil unrest in the nation's capitol. Our training and equipment was adequate for the mission - not a single Snickers was rustled while we were there.
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SPC George Rudenko
1LT William Clardy CPT Jim Schwebach Just from the legalities, this is the slipperiest slope. Many already see Trump's moves as dictatorship... build the wall, etc. Chicago is in a shitstorm, poorly paid and undermanned police with a bureaucracy that severely hinders their actions, followed by a social media flourishing of report first, get the truth later. I recall seeing NG in DC this election, standing there in their orange reflective vests as riot police ran past pursuing felons. It is easy to bring other LEO's from the state to troubled areas, and the Fed has jump teams of federal LEO's (CBP, BP. FPS, etc) that can also (and have) been sent throughout the US. For what 2017 needs, I do not see military having the requisite knowledge and training of US law and what to do in anything other than martial law to be able to assist. Places like Chicago have to choose to stop, meaning a combination of inner city communities wanting to stop the violence, and Police being able to enforce in a very violent area without fear of prosecution if an arrestee gets bruised. That's why many cops purchase their own liability insurance. :-/
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SPC Woody Bullard
CPT Jim Schwebach - 1932: President Herbert Hoover ordered U.S. Army
troops ( Calvary & Infantry ) into Washington D.C. to remove World War I veterans from
their protest site. 1967: President Lyndon Johnson ordered Paratroopers from the 82nd
and 101st Airborne Divisions into Detroit, Michigan to assist LEO's and Michigan National Guard troops during the riots. U.S. Army troops have been used in the United States to
stop civilian riots that LEO's and state National Guard troops could not control.
troops ( Calvary & Infantry ) into Washington D.C. to remove World War I veterans from
their protest site. 1967: President Lyndon Johnson ordered Paratroopers from the 82nd
and 101st Airborne Divisions into Detroit, Michigan to assist LEO's and Michigan National Guard troops during the riots. U.S. Army troops have been used in the United States to
stop civilian riots that LEO's and state National Guard troops could not control.
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I don't think so- peaceful assembly is legal, riot control is for the LEOs to deal with, that's their jurisdiction. Give the law enforcement officers the necessary tools to do their job safely- without military interference.
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1SG Billye Jackson
Another:In accordance with Barnett and Kennedy's plan, on Sunday evening, September 30, the day before the anticipated showdown, Meredith was flown to Oxford. He was quietly escorted by Mississippi Highway Patrol as he moved into a dorm room. The federal marshals assembled on to campus, supported by the 70th Army Engineer Combat Battalion from Ft Campbell, Kentucky:He ordered in U.S. Army military police from the 503rd and 716th Military Police Battalions, which had previously been readied for deployment under cover of the nuclear war Exercise Spade Fork, plus the U.S. Border Patrol and the federalized Mississippi National Guard. U.S. Navy medical personnel (physicians and hospital corpsmen) attached to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Millington, Tennessee, were also sent to the university.
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1SG Billye Jackson
Last One I Promise:
When violent protest broke out in Baltimore on April 6, nearly the entire Maryland National Guard, both Army and Air, were called up to deal with the unrest. The notable exceptions were the state's air defense units (which manned surface-to-air missile sites around the state), those units already on duty in the Washington, DC area, and a unit positioned in Cambridge, Maryland (the site of race riots in 1963 and 1967). The Adjutant General of Maryland, Major General George M. Gelston, commanded the National Guard force and also was given control of the city and state police forces in the city (approximately 1,900 police officers).[5]
The combined National Guard and police force proved unable to contain the uprising and on Sunday, April 7, federal troops were requested. Late that evening, elements of the XVIII Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg, North Carolina began arriving on the scene, while several Marine units from Camp Lejeune were put on standby status. With the intervention of federal forces, the Maryland National Guard was called into federal duty, resulting in a shift from state control (reporting to the Governor of Maryland) to federal control (reporting through the Army chain of command to the President). The federal force, Task Force Baltimore, was organized into three brigades and a reserve. These were (roughly), the XVIII Airborne Corps troops, the Maryland National Guard, and troops from the 197th Infantry Brigade from Fort Benning, Georgia (which arrived two days later). The 1,300 troops of the Maryland Air National Guard were organized in a provisional battalion and used to guard critical infrastructure throughout the city, as well as an ad hoc detention facility at the Baltimore Civic Center.[6] Task Force Baltimore peaked at 11,570 Army and National Guard troops on April 9, of which all but about 500 were committed to riot control duties.[7]
When violent protest broke out in Baltimore on April 6, nearly the entire Maryland National Guard, both Army and Air, were called up to deal with the unrest. The notable exceptions were the state's air defense units (which manned surface-to-air missile sites around the state), those units already on duty in the Washington, DC area, and a unit positioned in Cambridge, Maryland (the site of race riots in 1963 and 1967). The Adjutant General of Maryland, Major General George M. Gelston, commanded the National Guard force and also was given control of the city and state police forces in the city (approximately 1,900 police officers).[5]
The combined National Guard and police force proved unable to contain the uprising and on Sunday, April 7, federal troops were requested. Late that evening, elements of the XVIII Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg, North Carolina began arriving on the scene, while several Marine units from Camp Lejeune were put on standby status. With the intervention of federal forces, the Maryland National Guard was called into federal duty, resulting in a shift from state control (reporting to the Governor of Maryland) to federal control (reporting through the Army chain of command to the President). The federal force, Task Force Baltimore, was organized into three brigades and a reserve. These were (roughly), the XVIII Airborne Corps troops, the Maryland National Guard, and troops from the 197th Infantry Brigade from Fort Benning, Georgia (which arrived two days later). The 1,300 troops of the Maryland Air National Guard were organized in a provisional battalion and used to guard critical infrastructure throughout the city, as well as an ad hoc detention facility at the Baltimore Civic Center.[6] Task Force Baltimore peaked at 11,570 Army and National Guard troops on April 9, of which all but about 500 were committed to riot control duties.[7]
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There are ways to get around Posse Comitatus, see the Little Rock Nine and the 101st Airborne. But the National Guard would be used to quell "protestors" (rioters) and restore order, if it came to that.
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SP5 Steve Powell
Interesting that Rutherford B. Hayes loses the general election by popular vote & Electorial College and still became President. It's because of the Federal Military occupying the evil, bad Confederate States after the Civil War during "reconstruction". I do not find my fellow Citizens to be a threat exercising their Constitutional Rights. They become criminals when they riot and destroy other people's property. Lawlessness is not a Constitutional Right. Just saying...
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There are four exceptions to the Posse Comitatus Act that have been passed by Congress. Three of them are located in 10 USC Chapter 15, a.k.a. the Insurrection Act of 1807. The one to watch is probably section 333:
"Authorizes use of the militia and Armed Forces when domestic violence or conspiracy hinders execution of State or Federal law, and a State cannot or will not protect the constitutional rights of the citizens. Implements Article II, section 3, and the 14th Amendment of the Constitution."
Full link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/215.4
"Authorizes use of the militia and Armed Forces when domestic violence or conspiracy hinders execution of State or Federal law, and a State cannot or will not protect the constitutional rights of the citizens. Implements Article II, section 3, and the 14th Amendment of the Constitution."
Full link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/215.4
32 CFR 215.4 - Legal considerations.
(a) Under the Constitution and laws of the United States, the protection of life and property and the maintenance of public order are primarily the responsibilities of State and local governments, which have the necessary authority to enforce the laws. The Federal Government may assume this responsibility and this authority only in certain limited instances.
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TSgt (Join to see)
And also the NDAA of 2012 declared everywhere US law has jurisdiction to be a "battlefield" and thus empowers the US Military to operate thereupon.
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SPC Woody Bullard
Thank you for this very important information on U.S. military troops
being used in the United States in certain instances.
being used in the United States in certain instances.
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I believe our law enforcement communities are trained and equipped to deal with these incidents much better than our federal troops.
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MSG Frederick Otero
One would hope they are getting that training with so many national guards active in war time mission anybody know if they are in fact getting that kind of training these days?
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We have freedom of speech and 1st Amendment rights to allow the civilian population to express the opinions toward the POTUS. If the protesting turns into rioting or hate speech is fuels people to do terrorist acts law enforcement should take action. If law enforcement get overwhelmed the National Guard should be sent in as need to augment law enforcement. I don't think there should not be active duty forces involved.
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