Posted on Feb 15, 2015
Should there be one minimum APFT standard regardless of age and gender? What do you all think?
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One minimum that all Soldiers must meet. You can have a sliding scale if you want and an additional MOS or duty specific test as well.
Leadership
Fitness
Equality
Fairness
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
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LTC (Join to see)
Capt Richard I P. do you feel that when you are 50 you will be able to run as fast as you are now?
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Capt Richard I P.
LTC (Join to see) when I'm 50 I'll probably have to accept a lower score than when I was 20.
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Expecting a 47 year old (for example) to perform to the same standard as a 17 year old is unreasonable in the extreme. In this case, science is not crap, it's truth.
I consistently get between 225 and 250 on my APFT. If you're more worried about whether I max my APFT and less worried about how well I do my job (255A), the problem isn't with me.
I consistently get between 225 and 250 on my APFT. If you're more worried about whether I max my APFT and less worried about how well I do my job (255A), the problem isn't with me.
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I personally agree with the one standard mindset. I think it's nothing more than a mental mind block to say to a female, " Well science says...". To be frank it's crap. The females I work with and train with can out do most of the men on this answer feed. Last week I was the first soldier done behind my infantry back ground Commander on our ruck. We maintained a 14 min mile pace at 45lbs....I'm 5'1" with sciatic nerve damage down my left leg. I think a lot of what's being groomed into our females is a weak mindset.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Agreed and I hear you. SOme one look at my question and make assumption of negative intentions or that I am trying to say women and old people should be forced out. I am saying neither and I want all quality Soldiers to perform based on their own capability. My point is that for me I find it unfair and even unequal to ask anyone to meet different minimum standards because of their gender or age. To me that is degrading and disrespectful to all of them. Then if you want an additional physical test for an Infantry or Artillery Soldier for example then fine. I understand that anyone serving in a particular duty position could have additional physical requirements
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
I whole heartedly agree Sir. I personally have felt that way since the day I joined and learned the standard was different. It's so difficult to have female soldiers emulate the mindset of going for the male scale on a pt test.
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LTC Joseph Gross
SGT Chiaraluce, you have confused anecdotes for evidence. It scares me a little for you to say "science is crap" but I hold out hope that you really don't feel that way. The simple truth of it is that the best trained female athlete is still going to come in a distant second to the best trained male athlete and you know that is the truth. If it were not true (and backed up by science) then we would have female players in the NFL and we would not have a WNBA. Those two examples of course are from the unimportant world of professional sports. They have nothing to do with the real world of combat where no one cares if you can keep up on a 14 min mile pace with 45lbs. In the real world, we care that you are the strongest, most fit Soldier possible when you have to drag me and my equipment out of the line of fire. Add on the battle rattle and many of us approach 300 pounds... Science is a bitch it isn't crap.
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
To clarify Sir, I was merely trying to say that when that it is said, “Well science says…” the mindset it sets is crap. Science is evident. The mindset and saying that starting in basic to female soldiers sets a toxic mindset Sir. Properly trained athletes in the Army should be able to do a 290 or higher, however to truly gauge and push our soldiers verbiage like that shouldn’t be encouraged. The standard for push-ups and the 2 mile run should be made equal so the PT test is a fair assessment across the board.
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
If you check the Iron Man Triathlon times by age, you would be surprised SGT Jim Z.
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SGT Jim Z.
What does the Iron Man Triathlon have to due with the US Army APFT nothing. Remember triathlon athletes do not jump out of airplanes, helicopters, ruck 12 miles with 50lbs. Those actions create wear and tear and the older a soldier gets the longer it takes to recover. SGT(P) (Join to see)
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
SGT Jim Z. what I wanted to say is that, if you look for statistics, the older the athleyte the best the times. Maybe that's what the military thinks. If you look for the Iron Man Triathlon statistics you'll be surprised of the times +40 athletes does compared to 18 years old athletes. Just saying...
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I cannot support one standard among the sexes because sciences doesn't support it. Second to math, science regarding the human body is absolute. The only true way to equalize the APFT standard is to lower the men's standard to the women's.
However, you could lower the men's standard closer to the women's and vice versa. Then have the APFT simply a GO or NOGO test.
That's about it.
However, you could lower the men's standard closer to the women's and vice versa. Then have the APFT simply a GO or NOGO test.
That's about it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I understand the differences and challeneges but if we are saying all Soldiers should meet a minimum standard then there should be one for all. Furthermore, if I use the APFT to separate you from your peers or for the board then the score means less to me then your actual number of repetitions and run time. You do make a valid point that in general men and women are built differently and if we went to one standard it would be unfair to many. my answer to that would be to have one minimum standard and don't use the score as a separator or for a board accept to say pass or fail. Now if you want to create some completion in your unit then have a fitness contest, but if you are using a different scale based on age or gender then you are comparing apple to oranges and the comparison is invalid
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CPT (Join to see)
MAJ(P) (Join to see) - This may seem offensive, but I don't intend it to. I think that there is too much lowering the standard....that's basically the Army's version of "no child left behind".
v/r,
CPT Butler
v/r,
CPT Butler
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MAJ(P) (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) - No offense taken. I couldn't agree more. I was merely playing the Devil's advocate. If we HAVE to stick to a singular standard, in order to do so fairly, it would have to take into consideration science and fairness.
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The one thing I've always found a little annoying is that for the push ups and the run, an almost failing score for me is a 100% for a female of my age.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
She's working a lot harder than you are to get that same result though.
Women aren't as fast as men. Look at endurance running, and you'll see the differences in times. Women just aren't in the same league "as a group."
Women don't have the same upper body strength as well.
Now when we look at what the test is actually designed for "To determine level of physical fitness" that normalized score between a male at near failing (low fitness) and a woman at max effort (peak condition), it makes A LOT more sense.
It just doesn't feel right, because it doesn't feel fair.
So let me use this counter example.
You have two soldiers. One is extremely smart, and can get an 80% on a test without ever cracking a book. Another is "dumb as a box of rocks" and if he studies AND gets tutored, the best he is going to get is same 80%.
That's what a "same standards" test would be like.
Women aren't as fast as men. Look at endurance running, and you'll see the differences in times. Women just aren't in the same league "as a group."
Women don't have the same upper body strength as well.
Now when we look at what the test is actually designed for "To determine level of physical fitness" that normalized score between a male at near failing (low fitness) and a woman at max effort (peak condition), it makes A LOT more sense.
It just doesn't feel right, because it doesn't feel fair.
So let me use this counter example.
You have two soldiers. One is extremely smart, and can get an 80% on a test without ever cracking a book. Another is "dumb as a box of rocks" and if he studies AND gets tutored, the best he is going to get is same 80%.
That's what a "same standards" test would be like.
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Suspended Profile
Ehhh,
In the scope of business and bottom line, it'd be a waste to develop MOS specific events to APFT. Further, to standardize the APFT based on age and gender, you would probably eliminate realistic expectations for the force.
The APFT, if you notice, peaks around 28 years old. Theoretically, this is when you have acclimated to Army physical requirements and have not started to naturally go down hill in strength and endurance. I know there are some older soldiers who could run me in to the ground, but that is generally the exception, not the rule. Same goes for women soldiers. There may be some who could out PT the best of us, but anatomically, they are built in a way that can only be appraised in scale, with respect to males.
At the end of the day, I do not think the current APFT is comprehensive enough, bit I also do not think that it should be changed to encompass a standard between neither male and female, nor age.
The amount of money it would take to develop would far out weigh the value.
In the scope of business and bottom line, it'd be a waste to develop MOS specific events to APFT. Further, to standardize the APFT based on age and gender, you would probably eliminate realistic expectations for the force.
The APFT, if you notice, peaks around 28 years old. Theoretically, this is when you have acclimated to Army physical requirements and have not started to naturally go down hill in strength and endurance. I know there are some older soldiers who could run me in to the ground, but that is generally the exception, not the rule. Same goes for women soldiers. There may be some who could out PT the best of us, but anatomically, they are built in a way that can only be appraised in scale, with respect to males.
At the end of the day, I do not think the current APFT is comprehensive enough, bit I also do not think that it should be changed to encompass a standard between neither male and female, nor age.
The amount of money it would take to develop would far out weigh the value.
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Keep it as it is. We have people who cannot hit it as it is. Do NOT lower it at all though. If we lower the standards we lower what is expected of our servicemembers and we lower the quality servicemembers we have.
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One ring to rule them all.. await this is not the LOTR forum. Yes yes by all means one test and one further acrossed all of DoD makes sense. Then add to but never take away. Marines can ad a mile for the run. Congrates you just passed DoD standard Marine now finish as Marine one more mile.
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