Posted on Dec 2, 2014
Should Veterans receive special treatment in Court after committing a crime?
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In most states, the Court is recognizing Veterans that have committed a crime and offering a different type of program to them. (In line with the probation that they may already be granted). How do the masses feel about it?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 195
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I'd say yes, if the situation were such that the person's status as a veteran was something the court should consider.
Veteran's Courts for situations where a veteran acted out due to PTSD or injury have been very successful getting veterans to help instead of putting them in jail.
Veteran's Courts for situations where a veteran acted out due to PTSD or injury have been very successful getting veterans to help instead of putting them in jail.
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SGT Charles Letness
SSG Conaway,
This is an excellent post. What you said is spot on. I have dealt with this constantly. I have a degree in Business Administration and although I received a few interviews (And interviewed well I might add), I have yet to receive a job offer from any meaningful, serious stateside company. I made an experiment one day and didn't put down my Iraq service in my resume (I worked both in the field and behind a desk in operations), which has a lot of translatable skill that could really yield substantial results for anyone I work for and lo and behold I landed a job. It wasn't a great job, but something just for the meantime. I'm not suggesting that anyone hide their service just to get hired, but it seems sad that some veterans feel that is what they need to do just to land a meaningful job they are more then qualified to do and educated for. I am currently working in SE Asia as an ESL instructor because I want to travel a bit more, as I don't have a family of my own and now is the time to do these things, but when I eventually return home to the U.S. I will likely rely on my current networking pool to land something meaningful. I think that is one of the things that helps in securing work for those of us who do have degrees and a marketable skill. How is your networking pool by the way? Is it an avenue that you can consider in your career pursuit?
Also, I was reading an article about a year ago and read about companies that are (Or say they are) trying to hire more vets and General Electric came under considerable fire for their approach to this, which their criticism was more than warranted. They decided that former officers could apply for be hired to do white collar office work, while enlisted could only apply for and be hired for labor work, as it is the assumption of GE that enlisted folks don't have degrees. Well, many asked almost immediately the question about former enlisted folks who went to school and obtained a degree and GE still insisted that they are only able to do labor work. Then, the issue rose about those with degrees that never served and GE was stuck like Chuck. It was hysterical, stupid on GE's part, but hysterical to see these guys explain their foolhardy attempts to satisfy a public responsibility as it pertains to veterans. What's more, is that it proved that GE had no clue about the veteran's community and their attempt was simply a marketing campaign to better their image. GE has got to be one of the worst companies out there, just in terms of business conduct and decision-making. It is a good thing for them, at least in my view, that they have a fat bankroll to protect themselves during times of financial hardship, which was the case in 2008 and 2009.
This is an excellent post. What you said is spot on. I have dealt with this constantly. I have a degree in Business Administration and although I received a few interviews (And interviewed well I might add), I have yet to receive a job offer from any meaningful, serious stateside company. I made an experiment one day and didn't put down my Iraq service in my resume (I worked both in the field and behind a desk in operations), which has a lot of translatable skill that could really yield substantial results for anyone I work for and lo and behold I landed a job. It wasn't a great job, but something just for the meantime. I'm not suggesting that anyone hide their service just to get hired, but it seems sad that some veterans feel that is what they need to do just to land a meaningful job they are more then qualified to do and educated for. I am currently working in SE Asia as an ESL instructor because I want to travel a bit more, as I don't have a family of my own and now is the time to do these things, but when I eventually return home to the U.S. I will likely rely on my current networking pool to land something meaningful. I think that is one of the things that helps in securing work for those of us who do have degrees and a marketable skill. How is your networking pool by the way? Is it an avenue that you can consider in your career pursuit?
Also, I was reading an article about a year ago and read about companies that are (Or say they are) trying to hire more vets and General Electric came under considerable fire for their approach to this, which their criticism was more than warranted. They decided that former officers could apply for be hired to do white collar office work, while enlisted could only apply for and be hired for labor work, as it is the assumption of GE that enlisted folks don't have degrees. Well, many asked almost immediately the question about former enlisted folks who went to school and obtained a degree and GE still insisted that they are only able to do labor work. Then, the issue rose about those with degrees that never served and GE was stuck like Chuck. It was hysterical, stupid on GE's part, but hysterical to see these guys explain their foolhardy attempts to satisfy a public responsibility as it pertains to veterans. What's more, is that it proved that GE had no clue about the veteran's community and their attempt was simply a marketing campaign to better their image. GE has got to be one of the worst companies out there, just in terms of business conduct and decision-making. It is a good thing for them, at least in my view, that they have a fat bankroll to protect themselves during times of financial hardship, which was the case in 2008 and 2009.
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SPC Rebecca Vazquez-Lozano
I am a combat veteran rated at 100% t&p i count my nlessing evryday for the veterans court. Guilty is guilty yes i agree however i also believe its case by case and love the fact that they take into account military service and combat records as well as any ptsd,health or tbi injuries. But there are very strict guidlines as to eligibility to even be able to use veterans court as far as texas goes you have to first off have misdemeanor charges felony charges are not allowed in veterans court also have to be a first time offender and va medical records proving either ptsd or tbi. Its also called veterans treatment court not veterans court it is designed to help those who really need it and deserve it
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1SG (Join to see)
I have always felt that the best form of discipline was to use the minimum force necessary to alter the behavior. I use that with my children; I use that with my Soldiers.
In the case of crime, a judge needs to decide what kind of cat stands in front of them. My personal opinion:
1. First-time offender who made a mistake - this person is probably embarrassed by their behavior and wants to make amends. Most effective response: a mentor who can guide them away from making mistakes and give them alternatives.
2. First-time offender who is on a bad path - this person might not understand that their life is at a crossroads. Most effective response: some sort of "scared straight" program. This person needs to look into the abyss and decide to turn away... or not.
3. Repeat offender with an addiction problem (ie drugs, kleptomania, sexual offenders) - need professional help, not jail. They may struggle forever with their disorders, but with correct treatment, may be functional and not dangerous to society.
4. Repeat offenders that commit crimes for "entertainment" or some kind of "getting even with those who have things that I don't"- most likely, these people are running with the wrong crowd. Most effective: hook them up with the "right crowd". This is something the military excels at - and a reason that once upon a time enlisting was an alternative sentence.
5. Repeat offenders who are genuine sociopaths - people who have a problem and act out by attacking others. Most effective: lock them up and throw away the key.
I realize that this is a bit simplistic, but a judge has to measure what will be most effective at ending the behavior. In my opinion, mandatory sentences are wrong-headed.
In the case of veterans, there is a very high probability that they fall into a category where prison is not the right answer. A court that specializes in common veterans' issues will have a better chance to find the right solutions.
In the case of crime, a judge needs to decide what kind of cat stands in front of them. My personal opinion:
1. First-time offender who made a mistake - this person is probably embarrassed by their behavior and wants to make amends. Most effective response: a mentor who can guide them away from making mistakes and give them alternatives.
2. First-time offender who is on a bad path - this person might not understand that their life is at a crossroads. Most effective response: some sort of "scared straight" program. This person needs to look into the abyss and decide to turn away... or not.
3. Repeat offender with an addiction problem (ie drugs, kleptomania, sexual offenders) - need professional help, not jail. They may struggle forever with their disorders, but with correct treatment, may be functional and not dangerous to society.
4. Repeat offenders that commit crimes for "entertainment" or some kind of "getting even with those who have things that I don't"- most likely, these people are running with the wrong crowd. Most effective: hook them up with the "right crowd". This is something the military excels at - and a reason that once upon a time enlisting was an alternative sentence.
5. Repeat offenders who are genuine sociopaths - people who have a problem and act out by attacking others. Most effective: lock them up and throw away the key.
I realize that this is a bit simplistic, but a judge has to measure what will be most effective at ending the behavior. In my opinion, mandatory sentences are wrong-headed.
In the case of veterans, there is a very high probability that they fall into a category where prison is not the right answer. A court that specializes in common veterans' issues will have a better chance to find the right solutions.
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PO3 Bob Walsh
Contract Employment was a good source of jobs when I was working. Many companies hire through contracting firms, (Job Shops). This gives the employer the opportunity to observe you in the work place and evaluate your performance before making a job offer. You can evaluate the Company and decide if this is where you want to hang your hat. I worked the last 25years as a contract or temp employee. Many large companies and Govt. agencies hire temp employees. One Fortune 500 company was planning to employ 1 engineer as a permanent employee, to supervise 6 contract engineers. The company saves on benefits, Social Security, Vacation, etc.
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The outreach programs offered by "Veterans' Court" usually focuses on insisting on the veteran accepting responsibility for their actions and seeking the help needed to correct the behavior.
Most veterans are running into the problem of compounded issues that are getting them into trouble. Rather than it being a single act, it is a cascade effect of decisions made under less than optimal conditions. Prescription drug abuse and self-medication is usually what leads to these lapses in judgment, mainly related to untreated service related behavior patterns.
The outreach helps bring these issues to the attention of both the veteran as well as assistance programs to get the veteran help that he hasn't had before. Call it a triage.
There are already over 230,000 American Veterans serving time in prison. 150,000 will experience homelessness in the next year. Over 8000 will kill themselves.
As Veterans, we represent less than 7% of the US population. While our at risk group is smaller, a little more than 3%, proving that we are more adaptable over all, 10% of prisoners are vets, 20% of suicides, and 25% of the homeless have worn a uniform in their lifetime. I'm going to say causation here may mean a greater need to extend a hand to those veterans rather than throw them away.
Most veterans are running into the problem of compounded issues that are getting them into trouble. Rather than it being a single act, it is a cascade effect of decisions made under less than optimal conditions. Prescription drug abuse and self-medication is usually what leads to these lapses in judgment, mainly related to untreated service related behavior patterns.
The outreach helps bring these issues to the attention of both the veteran as well as assistance programs to get the veteran help that he hasn't had before. Call it a triage.
There are already over 230,000 American Veterans serving time in prison. 150,000 will experience homelessness in the next year. Over 8000 will kill themselves.
As Veterans, we represent less than 7% of the US population. While our at risk group is smaller, a little more than 3%, proving that we are more adaptable over all, 10% of prisoners are vets, 20% of suicides, and 25% of the homeless have worn a uniform in their lifetime. I'm going to say causation here may mean a greater need to extend a hand to those veterans rather than throw them away.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
In a lot of cases, the Veteran Court programs are some of the "harshest" parole/probation programs offered to "criminals". They are also comparatively expensive with continuing costs for both the state and the veteran. And in a lot of cases, failure to meet the standard does get the "book" thrown at you because of the relative danger you represent to the community. It is a "Special" treatment program, but it isn't a picnic either.
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A1C Michael King
According to a recent Gallup poll, the percentage of Veterans is closer to 14% of the total adult population. If you're including children too young to have served, I suppose we may be 7%. Still, your point is well taken that we are over-represented in both incarcerated and unhoused populations. The same is true generally for Americans of color. One fact that few people take into account is that working-class people are also over-represented in the military. Management-class and wealthy persons rarely serve. As John Fogerty pointed out in his song, "Fortunate Son", many of the loudest protestants (i.e., witnesses for, vis-a-vis against) of American patriotism are the privileged children of wealth or power (e.g., officers' kids; politicians' kids; CEOs' kids). Meanwhile, most of the people who actually enlist and serve are poor and otherwise poorly educated. All this together may suggest a causal relationship between veteran status and post-service economic opportunities.
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
You may want to do some fact checking on your overly poor and undereducated military Mr. King. The facts are clear that the majority of military service men and women ARE in fact well educated and that is represented by the scores posted in their ASVAB enlistment qualifications, are High School Graduates and many have college degrees that they have been incentivized to get loan repayment for. They are also NOT particularly poor as you suggest. They come from median and high income families with a sense of duty or desire to better themselves through military service and educational benefits. The extremely poor do not have a need for, nor do they qualify for military service as many of the benefits afforded military service is already provided in an effort to give them a "Hand up"
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CW2 Joseph Evans
The thing I notice for most veterans that are having trouble adapting is the lack of network and infrastructure to support them in transition. The time I spent in the service has separated me from the networking opportunities of my hometown where I decided to settle. For many this is more of an issue of who you know than what you know. If you aren't an aggressive self marketer while trying to transition, it affects you more than you know. Most of our success rates are people who stay in related fields close to military ties. When you want something different, no military reminders, it gets exponentially harder.
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Justice should never be administered automatically without due deliberation.
I have long argued in opposition to the "Three Strikes" laws. How silly to base justice on a baseball metaphor. Rigid sentencing guidelines are the result of our failure to trust our judges. Wouldn't it be better to replace the judges than attempt to determine just punishments at a distance, say from legislative chambers?
Thus, veterans who commit crimes should be judged as fairly as all other perpetrators. If they suffer a disability that influenced their criminal behavior, a disability that might mitigate the punishment rendered to any other criminal, then that should be taken into consideration. But to automatically assume that veterans suffer some sort of mental or emotional disability and because of it, their punishment must be mitigated is to assume that all veterans are somehow defective. Do you believe that? I don't...
I have long argued in opposition to the "Three Strikes" laws. How silly to base justice on a baseball metaphor. Rigid sentencing guidelines are the result of our failure to trust our judges. Wouldn't it be better to replace the judges than attempt to determine just punishments at a distance, say from legislative chambers?
Thus, veterans who commit crimes should be judged as fairly as all other perpetrators. If they suffer a disability that influenced their criminal behavior, a disability that might mitigate the punishment rendered to any other criminal, then that should be taken into consideration. But to automatically assume that veterans suffer some sort of mental or emotional disability and because of it, their punishment must be mitigated is to assume that all veterans are somehow defective. Do you believe that? I don't...
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
I think the program originally started in New York and that model has been adopted through word of mouth and success stories more than anything else. The first program was modeled after similar "Drug or mental health rehab" programs that incorporate mental health assistance into the court probate system. As ours is now established, the judges have the initial contact with law violators at pre trial or arraignment proceedings and can at their discretion, and the agreement of the prosecuting attorney, refer individuals to the Veterans court. At that time rather than schedule an immediate trial date, a date is set to meet with the VA and VSO reps to confirm the viability of the vets inclusion. Once it is determined the vet is a good fit in the program they proceed with Veterans court. Whatever judicial and legal measures are imposed as terms of probation and are monitored at court imposed intervals by the VA reps, Mentor, Judge, and probation officer. It provides various levels of support rather than one POC (probation officer) to monitor progress. It also mandates through the court system the vet completes any counseling or treatment in the VA system (which, without court order, the VA treatment is voluntary)
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CPT Jack Durish
@SFC Jeff Gurchinoff As I mentioned above, you need to write your own posting on this subject. It could inspire others to recreate your program in their jurisdictions. These disjointed responses to my queries are lost in the discussion that started off on a different tack.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Jeff Gurchinoff, Like CPT Jack Durish , I would like to hear more of this program. This is the first I have heard of it, and find it a very interesting mindset. Would like to know how it came to be implemented, other locations where is has been implemented. Thank You.
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
Sir, 1SG, I created a post to explain the program as best as I could. I don't navigate Rally Point often so not sure how to tell you all where to find it in here. Thank you for your interest! I really think this is a great program if not abused or misused.
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With extremely rare exceptions, whenever a question is prefaced by "should veterans receive special treatment for ____," my answer is always the same. No, veterans should not receive special treatment. We are not above civilians, and we should not expect to be treated as such.
This is one of those exceptions.
As 1SG (Join to see) has said, veterans courts have been successful in getting veterans suffering from psychological issues help instead of just throwing them into a cell which helps nobody. When someone breaks a law and is sentenced yes there is punishment involved, but as important if not more so is the rehabilitation. These veteran courts seem to offer significant improvements to the latter, which in my opinion gives enough merit to offer "special treatment."
This is one of those exceptions.
As 1SG (Join to see) has said, veterans courts have been successful in getting veterans suffering from psychological issues help instead of just throwing them into a cell which helps nobody. When someone breaks a law and is sentenced yes there is punishment involved, but as important if not more so is the rehabilitation. These veteran courts seem to offer significant improvements to the latter, which in my opinion gives enough merit to offer "special treatment."
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CPT Jack Durish
I asked above for the identity of the sponsor of the program that SFC Jeff Gurchinoff mentioned because I have a law degree and would consider becoming involved if it is a volunteer group such as the VFW or American Legion who have service officers who act as ombudsmen between veterans and the VA. I think it is an excellent idea if these service officers serve all veterans facing criminal charges, regardless of guilt or innocence, to insure that they get a fair hearing and treatment.
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In terms of guilt or innocence. Absolutely not. A crime is a crime. Prior good act(s) are not an excuse for current bad acts and prior military service should not be a "get out of jail free" card. If it ever becomes so then we will see the current esteem that the US population holds the US military evaporate before our eyes.
In terms of extenuation and mitigation. Yes if part of the extenuation/mitigation relates to something that is service connected such as PTSD. This, however, should not be a recurring trend for a single individual. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
In terms of extenuation and mitigation. Yes if part of the extenuation/mitigation relates to something that is service connected such as PTSD. This, however, should not be a recurring trend for a single individual. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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SSgt Shane Karst
All evidence should be weight, period. A rape victim should be considered for psychological help following a crime, because trauma does absolutely have its effect. It's not just veterans. If a person was hurt or killed in the crime, justice must be meted out for that. That is to help with the healing process of the victim and victim's family. Our justice system, quite frankly, is poorly set up in my opinion. I'd like to see true corrections and rehabilitation and not at the tremendous expense of taxpayers. Paying for a criminals education is not fixing the problem inside of them. That's what it's supposed to be about, isn't it? What about setting up correctional facilities staffed with recovering drug addicts for drug offenders? Working with the inmates will help those in recovery and provide real rehabilitation for the offender. The same holds true with veterans with PTSD. They must accept justice for their crime, but throwing them in a cell isn't really going to help them or society.
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PO3 Rod Arnold
You sound as if PTSD, depression, or even Self medication, is something that just goes away. Fool me once...... I cant believe someone of your rank would say something like that. Do you think PTSD sufferers are trying to fool someone when the battlefield blood and guts, or the kills you made are flashing in your head driving you crazy. I'm a Vietnam Vet. and sometimes its like I'm back. Shame on you for your heartless ignorant comment's !
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PO2 (Join to see)
PO3 Rod Arnold - I can believe someone of that rank would say something like that in 2016.
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COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM
Po2 Arnold, Po2 Reilly, my comments were not intended to mean that someone with PTSD is fooling anyone. My comments were intended to mean that an individual is responsible for their own behavior and that extenuating/mitigating circumstances are not perpetual considerations for subsequent crimes. For example, if a person has a drinking problem then one DUI should be treated differently in terms of punishment than a fifth DUI. Please reread the original post which is about crime, punishment, and Veteran's courts which is what my comments apply to. Your posts seem to relate to illnesses such as PTSD absent any crime which is a different issue. Let's stay on topic here.
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Good Topic TSgt Jones. I am retired from the Marine Corps and I am an attorney in Michigan now. The topic that you are addressing here is what is known as Veterans Treatment Courts. This type of court started out east, I think Buffalo, NY and is spreading across the country. I have helped to start Veteran Treatment Courts in several counties in Michigan.
It is important to note that this is NOT special treatment for veterans. The Veterans Treatment Courts are modeled after other "special" courts such as Drug Courts. These "Special" Courts take certain specifics related to the Defendant into consideration and provide for "Special" terms associated with the probation.
In Veterans Treatment Courts, the Prosecutor and the Judge will determine what types of violations will be permitted to plead in this "special" court. Some victims object to Spouse abuse to be offered in this Court, while others think that would be appropriate.
In working to set up Veteran Treatment Courts, we often consider Veterans with PTSD as the target Defendant. Possibly, the veteran is self medicating his/her PTSD with alcohol or drugs or maybe the spouse abuse or fighting was triggered by a PTSD episode. However, whatever violations are selected the Court is then established by legislation or ruling by the State Supreme Court.
The primary component of Veterans Treatment Courts compared to other "Specialty Courts" is the inclusion of Veteran Mentors. In Michigan and in other States that I have studied each Veteran Defendant who is placed on Probation is assigned a Veteran Mentor. In Michigan we try to match Marines with Marines and Sailors with Sailors and so on. Also we try to match Combat Vets with Combat Vets.
Next we also include the VA. At each court hearing there are VA Reps in the back of the court with computer terminals tied into the local VA Hospitals. If a Veteran Defendant needs immediate hospitalization or Treatment the VA Reps handle that on the spot.
The Veteran Defendant is NOT given a softer sentence - but he is insured additional support to help him/her make it through Probation. I have worked with Veterans Mentors who are typically GySgts or MSgts and in a couple cases SgtMajors, these Mentors take their jobs seriously and kick ass to make sure their Veteran gets squared away -- This is Military Tough Love at its best. The Judges I have worked with have 'Graduation' Ceremonies when a Veteran Defendant completes his/her probation successfully. Lots of tears and hugs. Depending on the violation upon completion of the Probation the Veterans record is cleared so that he/she can go get a job.
So Should these Courts be encouraged. YES. I encourage all Veterans who are reading this to check with their local District Court to see if they have a Veterans Treatment Court and how to volunteer to be a Veteran Mentor.
It is important to note that this is NOT special treatment for veterans. The Veterans Treatment Courts are modeled after other "special" courts such as Drug Courts. These "Special" Courts take certain specifics related to the Defendant into consideration and provide for "Special" terms associated with the probation.
In Veterans Treatment Courts, the Prosecutor and the Judge will determine what types of violations will be permitted to plead in this "special" court. Some victims object to Spouse abuse to be offered in this Court, while others think that would be appropriate.
In working to set up Veteran Treatment Courts, we often consider Veterans with PTSD as the target Defendant. Possibly, the veteran is self medicating his/her PTSD with alcohol or drugs or maybe the spouse abuse or fighting was triggered by a PTSD episode. However, whatever violations are selected the Court is then established by legislation or ruling by the State Supreme Court.
The primary component of Veterans Treatment Courts compared to other "Specialty Courts" is the inclusion of Veteran Mentors. In Michigan and in other States that I have studied each Veteran Defendant who is placed on Probation is assigned a Veteran Mentor. In Michigan we try to match Marines with Marines and Sailors with Sailors and so on. Also we try to match Combat Vets with Combat Vets.
Next we also include the VA. At each court hearing there are VA Reps in the back of the court with computer terminals tied into the local VA Hospitals. If a Veteran Defendant needs immediate hospitalization or Treatment the VA Reps handle that on the spot.
The Veteran Defendant is NOT given a softer sentence - but he is insured additional support to help him/her make it through Probation. I have worked with Veterans Mentors who are typically GySgts or MSgts and in a couple cases SgtMajors, these Mentors take their jobs seriously and kick ass to make sure their Veteran gets squared away -- This is Military Tough Love at its best. The Judges I have worked with have 'Graduation' Ceremonies when a Veteran Defendant completes his/her probation successfully. Lots of tears and hugs. Depending on the violation upon completion of the Probation the Veterans record is cleared so that he/she can go get a job.
So Should these Courts be encouraged. YES. I encourage all Veterans who are reading this to check with their local District Court to see if they have a Veterans Treatment Court and how to volunteer to be a Veteran Mentor.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Yes it was and rather than be the ones who throw them under the bus, being the one to help correct the issues, whatever they are.
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
I am proud to say I am a mentor in Michigan, great work on a great program! Thank you Sir!
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Lt Col (Join to see)
My comment would be that yes that is special treatment and more over why isn't that offered to all people who commit a crime. Very rarely do people just commit a crime to commit they crime. There is almost always extenuating circumstances.
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Vets Definitely need help. I will share one of two personal experiences. I was permanently retired from army after LOD investigation determined I have permanent irreversible damage to both lungs. After being discharged from the ER for acute broncospasm. I wasn't responding to treatment and thought they were going to have to admit me. I drove my kid out of state to stay with my parents. I got pulled over in front of my parents house and charged with DUI and Child endangerment for failure to successfully do a breathalyzer test. I explained my health situation and attempted it 8 times with two different city cops who cuffed me and took me to jail. It's considered a refusal and Automatic DUI. I produced the documents to the city judge. The letter on VA letter head from my doctor that my lung capacity is reduced and would interfere with the ability to successfully complete breathalyzer test. I also produced documents of ER Visit . I was denied a court appointed Attny bc it's not required in city court. The city judge barely thumbed through the
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SGT Michael Glenn
Georgia has many issues SPC Luman, one being that most are (not all) Ignorant convicts themselves. Jasper Georgia is from what they say , the "CONVICT CAPITAL" of the states.All are proud to be convicts and outsiders dont fit in, I went toe to toe with the Sheriffs dept there about a officer who was assigned to the local lock up and either sold drugs to the inmates or sex with them, had her favorites who had been transferred to the prison a few hours away and would go visit them on a weekly basis. when I turned her nasty ass in I was threatened by all kinds of good ole boys to include members of the Sheriffs Dept who said if I didnt leave town they would show me a bottomless pit not too far away...It really pissed them off when I went to the neighboring county and applied for a job as a deputy and actually got it !!!! Lots of talking and favors went down at that point and I wound up being told I needed to try a few more counties over for employment...like in the next state. I saw incest like you wouldnt believe and the greater part of Jasper is related to each other through incest, it was like going back in time to be honest.I too have a conviction that goes back to when I was 18 and got arrested for doing speeds in excess of 160 in a 55.... since then I have nothing.... I am glad yo made it through that horrific ordeal and wish you well with your medical issues.
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SPC Leisel Luman
SGT Michael Glenn Are you serious??? I thought I was just being treated " Special". That is hysterically funny that you got hired there. It least you tried to counterweight the injustice and corruption in that cesspool . Glad you made it out alive. You would have been safer in a FOB of a war zone. You truly understand the level of corruption there. You are a gifted wordsmith. Thank you!!'
Did you see the City Police Chief in Georgia who accidentally shot his wife while they were sleeping in their bed?
I have to say the VA in St. Petersburg has great doctors. I have my good days and bad days like all of us.
Did you see the City Police Chief in Georgia who accidentally shot his wife while they were sleeping in their bed?
I have to say the VA in St. Petersburg has great doctors. I have my good days and bad days like all of us.
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SGT Michael Glenn
ok...we will leave it at being treated special so as not to spoil the effect. My brutal ability to open my mouth regardless who is in front of me has landed me in some pretty interesting situations . But on the positive side you know exactly where you stand with me, there is no second guessing...in a FOB or war zone you know who the enemy is, in this particular situation you dont, Civilian life in a way is down right scary in that direction and because of it I have a HUGE distrust of people in general incase you havent noticed.
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SPC Leisel Luman
SGT Michael Glenn That huge distrust in people is something we have in common. Sometime mine goes a little overboard. I can appreciate a direct communication style even if I don't like what is said.
Thanks again,
Leisel
Thanks again,
Leisel
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Yes they should. I do not consider a sensitive Veteran Court as special treatment. My city has Veteran Court the offers mentors and clear path to assisting Veterans in putting their lives back together either through treatment or restitution - once completed, the charges are then dropped. Misdemeanor charges only.
I personally see no sense in arresting a chronically mentally ill homeless Veteran for Vagrancy or for being involved in a fight - after all combat Veterans were taught to do just that and we all know that TAP's - Transition Assistance Programs are fairly useless.
We are sensitive to every other population in this country if we have to be - we (need) to be sensitive to Veterans. And yes, as a Veteran, I am biased.
I personally see no sense in arresting a chronically mentally ill homeless Veteran for Vagrancy or for being involved in a fight - after all combat Veterans were taught to do just that and we all know that TAP's - Transition Assistance Programs are fairly useless.
We are sensitive to every other population in this country if we have to be - we (need) to be sensitive to Veterans. And yes, as a Veteran, I am biased.
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Veteran status should always be a consideration when adjudicating criminal conduct. While it seldom excuses criminal conduct, it may explain conduct and serve as mitigation. It will certainly be used to show knowledge or intent when relevant, so the blade of justice should cut both ways.
Most veterans' courts do not permit serious offenses to be adjudicated in them and many require the acquiescence of crime victims before victim crimes can be heard there, as well. The only felony offenses that would probably fall into veterans' courts jurisdiction would be drug crimes and, in all likelihood, a community forward-looking enough to have a veterans' court would also have a drug court for those offenses.
The vast majority of veterans' court cases deal with status crimes - public intoxication, loitering, disorderly conduct, petty theft, shoplifting, etc. Considering that most veterans, whether they serve in combat or not, suffer some form of adjustment disorder when returning to civilian life, these types of offenses are very common for veterans and should be dealt with in a compassionate way that serves to rehabilitate rather than stigmatize.
As a prosecutor, I always considered a defendant's status as a veteran in seeking appropriate justice. That consideration did not always result in different treatment for the veteran. In fact, it was probably outweighed by other factors more often than not, but when appropriate it did result in giving a break to the vet.
Additionally, I, and most career prosecutors I know, always treated unrepresented defendants with special attention. The goal of a professional prosecutor is not to obtain convictions but to obtain justice. Justice is subverted anytime someone is unfairly treated based solely on their not being able to afford an attorney and yet not qualifying for court-appointed counsel. If you are faced with the criminal justice system and aren't sure whether you are entitled to counsel, a general rule of thumb is this 1 - if you can afford counsel, you are always entitled to legal representation, 2 - if you face the possibility of serving jail time, you are always entitled to counsel and court-appointed counsel if you are indigent, 3 - if the offense will not result in incarceration but carries a serious non-jail punishment (in Arizona, for example, the loss of certain rights/privileges or the requirement of registering as a sex offender) you are entitled to court-appointed counsel if indigent. A bit more free advice - whatever you tell the judge can be used against you, so it's better to remain silent than admit culpability and pleading not guilty even if you believe you are guilty is almost always the better course of action. Just because you may have done something illegal doesn't necessarily mean you are guilty of a crime. Most crimes require criminal intent on your part, not just a criminal action, and you will always be better served if you can talk to an attorney (or even a parent or close friend who can give you objective advice) than pleading guilty at your initial appearance.
Most veterans' courts do not permit serious offenses to be adjudicated in them and many require the acquiescence of crime victims before victim crimes can be heard there, as well. The only felony offenses that would probably fall into veterans' courts jurisdiction would be drug crimes and, in all likelihood, a community forward-looking enough to have a veterans' court would also have a drug court for those offenses.
The vast majority of veterans' court cases deal with status crimes - public intoxication, loitering, disorderly conduct, petty theft, shoplifting, etc. Considering that most veterans, whether they serve in combat or not, suffer some form of adjustment disorder when returning to civilian life, these types of offenses are very common for veterans and should be dealt with in a compassionate way that serves to rehabilitate rather than stigmatize.
As a prosecutor, I always considered a defendant's status as a veteran in seeking appropriate justice. That consideration did not always result in different treatment for the veteran. In fact, it was probably outweighed by other factors more often than not, but when appropriate it did result in giving a break to the vet.
Additionally, I, and most career prosecutors I know, always treated unrepresented defendants with special attention. The goal of a professional prosecutor is not to obtain convictions but to obtain justice. Justice is subverted anytime someone is unfairly treated based solely on their not being able to afford an attorney and yet not qualifying for court-appointed counsel. If you are faced with the criminal justice system and aren't sure whether you are entitled to counsel, a general rule of thumb is this 1 - if you can afford counsel, you are always entitled to legal representation, 2 - if you face the possibility of serving jail time, you are always entitled to counsel and court-appointed counsel if you are indigent, 3 - if the offense will not result in incarceration but carries a serious non-jail punishment (in Arizona, for example, the loss of certain rights/privileges or the requirement of registering as a sex offender) you are entitled to court-appointed counsel if indigent. A bit more free advice - whatever you tell the judge can be used against you, so it's better to remain silent than admit culpability and pleading not guilty even if you believe you are guilty is almost always the better course of action. Just because you may have done something illegal doesn't necessarily mean you are guilty of a crime. Most crimes require criminal intent on your part, not just a criminal action, and you will always be better served if you can talk to an attorney (or even a parent or close friend who can give you objective advice) than pleading guilty at your initial appearance.
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YES, call me biased if you will but for the 1% of our country that raise their hand to put their butt on the line and volunteer....I say they deserve special consideration.
Now, don't get crazy - we have to be held accountable I don't mean a get out of jail free card, but our Veterans deserve special consideration for their service.
Now, don't get crazy - we have to be held accountable I don't mean a get out of jail free card, but our Veterans deserve special consideration for their service.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Thank you! Just go to any community outreach and you will find veterans, with and without some kind of trauma and they need help. Our streets are not safer if we put people back on the street who cannot get a job. The result is hopelessness and desperation. How is that a reward as you mentioned CSM Michael J. Uhlig BTW, I am agreeing with you.
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