Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 707
For those who chose not serve and stuck around to face the music. I disagree, but respect.
For those that avoided service, but used the rules to do it. I don't like it, but harbor no ill will. "The rules is the rules."
For those that ran, they made a choice and they should live by their choice. I don't like them standing on American soil, breathing American Air, and enjoying American freedom. I forgive, but do not forget. I don't go looking for a pissing contest, but If they bring up the subject, I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. As far as I am concerned, they are not to be trusted.
For those that avoided service, but used the rules to do it. I don't like it, but harbor no ill will. "The rules is the rules."
For those that ran, they made a choice and they should live by their choice. I don't like them standing on American soil, breathing American Air, and enjoying American freedom. I forgive, but do not forget. I don't go looking for a pissing contest, but If they bring up the subject, I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. As far as I am concerned, they are not to be trusted.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
1SG Mark Rodgers -
I COULD Be Wrong, But I THINK There's A Difference
Between Having A Deferment For A Breathing Issue And Having Daddy's
Friendly Doctor Whom Leases Space For His Practice In Daddy's Building
And Phonies Up A Disability Form Saying: "Donald J. Trump Cannot Serve,
He Has Bone Spurs On His Feet"-- And His Thump Up Hizaz.
I COULD Be Wrong, But I THINK There's A Difference
Between Having A Deferment For A Breathing Issue And Having Daddy's
Friendly Doctor Whom Leases Space For His Practice In Daddy's Building
And Phonies Up A Disability Form Saying: "Donald J. Trump Cannot Serve,
He Has Bone Spurs On His Feet"-- And His Thump Up Hizaz.
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COL Randall Cudworth
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - Rick, you're going off the rails again. Your trolling/personal attack comments have been removed.
Keep it respectful - as a reminder, you can advocate for your position forcefully and demean the other's position as much as you like. However, personal attacks are not allowed.
If you need a refresher of what the primary Community Standards for discourse between RP Members is, you can read them at https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/enforcement-of-rallypoint-community-standards-2020-03-13-10-21-35 and https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/rallypoint-answers-and-discussion-conduct-2020-03-13-10-21-35
Keep it respectful - as a reminder, you can advocate for your position forcefully and demean the other's position as much as you like. However, personal attacks are not allowed.
If you need a refresher of what the primary Community Standards for discourse between RP Members is, you can read them at https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/enforcement-of-rallypoint-community-standards-2020-03-13-10-21-35 and https://rallypoint.my.site.com/Support/s/article/rallypoint-answers-and-discussion-conduct-2020-03-13-10-21-35
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
COL Randall Cudworth -
I Was Just Coming Back To leave The Major A Note
Saying "I'm Just Going To Ignore You Again & Let You Talk To Yourself"
But Now I Don't Have To Do That. Thanks For Helping Me Put An End To It,.
I Was Just Coming Back To leave The Major A Note
Saying "I'm Just Going To Ignore You Again & Let You Talk To Yourself"
But Now I Don't Have To Do That. Thanks For Helping Me Put An End To It,.
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CW4 William Kessinger
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - you could have left the last statement out of your comments! That alone got you a down vote!
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I agree with you that I want men and women serving that are joining of their own free will. I do not agree with you that a draft is slavery. I volunteered and knew that I would be going to Vietnam. I never gave any thought to draft dodgers. What bothered me were the scum bags that greeted me at LAX when I returned from Vietnam. They tried to block my way, asked me how many babies had I killed, told me to repent for my sins, etc. I was in uniform flying military standby. One of the hardest things that I have ever done, was not confronting these scum bags.
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SP6 Greg Jetter
agree 100% , in 72 the war was ending , i was returning home from basic training in uniform , got harassed the same at the airport. These assholes are now running the government .
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
1SG Mark Rodgers -
...."Can you walk away when drafted? No."
But I'd Suggest He Learn The Canadian National Anthem. (;-)+
...."Can you walk away when drafted? No."
But I'd Suggest He Learn The Canadian National Anthem. (;-)+
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CW4 William Kessinger
I too never had an issue with draftees' or volunteers (I was a volunteer) as I went to VN with intent! As for those that called me a baby killer, my retort was to respond with "of course, they gave me extra points for babies as they were harder to hit."
That shut them up for a second or two.
That shut them up for a second or two.
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As a Viet Nam era enlistee I chose to enlist. I didn't run off to Canada. I am admittedly more upset with folks like Kerry & McCain that embellished their own record, profited from it and have become national embarrassments. Lack of information is the biggest enemy. If the reasons were legitimate I have no problems with deferments.
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CPL Joe Brown
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - I concur about cadet bone spurs...it was a cheap shot below the belt to those of us that had to go.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
CPL Joe Brown -
I Wasn't DRAFTED ~~ I ENLISTED On My 17th Birthday 06/29/1961 ~
~One Of My Best Decision Ever~ Changed My Life For The Better, And Were It NOT For The PAY, It Would Have Been My Career Of Choice. My TOP Pay ~ Overseas In South Korea ~ $173.00 Per MONTH. ~ Even The Counter Help At McDonald's Pays 3 - 4 Times As Much ~~ I've Even Known, The Ranks From E-5 On Down, With Families ~~ On Social Services For Enough To Survive On.~~ Just "Not My Cup Of Tea"...
I Wasn't DRAFTED ~~ I ENLISTED On My 17th Birthday 06/29/1961 ~
~One Of My Best Decision Ever~ Changed My Life For The Better, And Were It NOT For The PAY, It Would Have Been My Career Of Choice. My TOP Pay ~ Overseas In South Korea ~ $173.00 Per MONTH. ~ Even The Counter Help At McDonald's Pays 3 - 4 Times As Much ~~ I've Even Known, The Ranks From E-5 On Down, With Families ~~ On Social Services For Enough To Survive On.~~ Just "Not My Cup Of Tea"...
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SSG Elbert Thomas
CPL Joe Brown - Then you must of felt the same way about Niden. How could he play football all of his teenage years and be a lifeguard and have asthma? Did you ever have heel spurs? I have when we were still running in boots, it's painful and took forever to heal. Face it, you're a democrat and nothing Trump could do would make you happy. He could cure cancer, but you would be mad because he put drug makers out of work.
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CW4 William Kessinger
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - That point I must agree with you on . (apparently the only point) I too was in the AF in the early 60's and had a wife and one kid. Had to work 2 part time jobs to make ends meet at times. Ended up hating the AF for their slow premotions and pay scale.
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