Posted on Mar 1, 2015
Should you be considered a veteran of a particular campaign, if you have never actually been on the ground there?
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I have seen earlier discussion(s) about Vietnam Era Veterans vs. Vietnam Veterans. The later group being ones who actually served in the RVN combat theater of the operations (AOO), or (I assume) the area of responsibility (AOR). This includes ground forces in the AOO, and supporting forces in the (AOR).
The gray area, which always seems to be the area of confusion and often consternation, are those who support the AOO from outside of its boundaries and what type of support are they actually providing.
A few examples:
1. I served all over Iraq, and in Baghdad for 15 months during the Surge. As you know service members in Kuwait, Qatar and other places around the AOR, many of whom never entered Iraq, are (A) considered OIF campaign veterans, and (B) were entitled to the same pay benefits (CZTE - IDP) as we were. Serving in Baghdad, in places like Sadr City the like, I was as times frustrated that my peers on Qatar (who could even drink there) were getting the same benefits that we were. I think the only difference was they could not award combat awards and decorations.
* During a really bad time (week) during the surge, I got a photo from a buddy on email, who was on the 6 month CENTCOM rotation into Qatar, of him sitting in a Jacuzzi drinking a beer, in Qatar. I know they received CZTE, but not sure about IDP. But, they are OIF campaign veterans like me. That still bothers me. Yes, I know I need to let it go.
2. During Allied Force, USAF pilots were flying bombing missions from Aviano Italy into Kosovo and back in the same day. I don't think they qualified for any pay benefits aside from what they get normally, but there was a big "to do" when they tried to award combat medals to USAF personnel who never left Italy or EUCOM HQ (Stuttgart).
3. Today B2 Bombers fly from Missouri to current combat theaters and back in 24 hours... Are they OEF veterans? Should they be?
I am not saying only ground forces deserve credit, as I believe both those serving in the theater on ground, as well as those who provide direct support into or over the combat theater deserves the same campaign credit. Examples would be USN or USAF flying missions into the area, but returning to bases/carriers outside the AOO or even AOR. Blue water Navy providing support in the AOR etc. I suspect there are many I don't see or know about as a Soldier.
I am sure you have many examples, and I have my opinions, which are based on my experiences. I am interested in what you think, so I can broaden my perspective.
The gray area, which always seems to be the area of confusion and often consternation, are those who support the AOO from outside of its boundaries and what type of support are they actually providing.
A few examples:
1. I served all over Iraq, and in Baghdad for 15 months during the Surge. As you know service members in Kuwait, Qatar and other places around the AOR, many of whom never entered Iraq, are (A) considered OIF campaign veterans, and (B) were entitled to the same pay benefits (CZTE - IDP) as we were. Serving in Baghdad, in places like Sadr City the like, I was as times frustrated that my peers on Qatar (who could even drink there) were getting the same benefits that we were. I think the only difference was they could not award combat awards and decorations.
* During a really bad time (week) during the surge, I got a photo from a buddy on email, who was on the 6 month CENTCOM rotation into Qatar, of him sitting in a Jacuzzi drinking a beer, in Qatar. I know they received CZTE, but not sure about IDP. But, they are OIF campaign veterans like me. That still bothers me. Yes, I know I need to let it go.
2. During Allied Force, USAF pilots were flying bombing missions from Aviano Italy into Kosovo and back in the same day. I don't think they qualified for any pay benefits aside from what they get normally, but there was a big "to do" when they tried to award combat medals to USAF personnel who never left Italy or EUCOM HQ (Stuttgart).
3. Today B2 Bombers fly from Missouri to current combat theaters and back in 24 hours... Are they OEF veterans? Should they be?
I am not saying only ground forces deserve credit, as I believe both those serving in the theater on ground, as well as those who provide direct support into or over the combat theater deserves the same campaign credit. Examples would be USN or USAF flying missions into the area, but returning to bases/carriers outside the AOO or even AOR. Blue water Navy providing support in the AOR etc. I suspect there are many I don't see or know about as a Soldier.
I am sure you have many examples, and I have my opinions, which are based on my experiences. I am interested in what you think, so I can broaden my perspective.
Posted in these groups: 
Combat
Deployment
Combat Deployment
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 54
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I think whatever someone did in their service and what they say they did doesn't affect me and doesnt change my service one iota.
Remember that poster in some gyms or locker rooms, someone, somewhere is trainng while you're resting? Well someone somewhere has a story or experience harsher than yours. This fact doesnt change anything, cause its all relative.
Just realized how snarky this sounds, sorry about that, but still true.
Remember that poster in some gyms or locker rooms, someone, somewhere is trainng while you're resting? Well someone somewhere has a story or experience harsher than yours. This fact doesnt change anything, cause its all relative.
Just realized how snarky this sounds, sorry about that, but still true.
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Yes, participation in actively supporting the efforts while in the Combat AOR makes you a Veteran of that Campaign, Period. Actually facing Direct Fire from the Enemy would define a Combat Veteran. The Military recognizes Valor and Achievement by awarding Medals and Badges, Unit Participation with Ribbons, and Civilian Participation with Pay. Where the geographic line is drawn that defines the AOR is where those that are in command determine there is direct involvement with the campaign and are under the operational command of the campaign commander.
Being an Infantryman, Aircrew, or Special Operator is choosing to be the Tip of the Spear. There is only the highest respect for your service from your fellow veterans. Nobody should diminish the efforts of all those support forces that made it possible the campaign could be victorious, even if they were able to enjoy a beer in a hot tub after work.
Being an Infantryman, Aircrew, or Special Operator is choosing to be the Tip of the Spear. There is only the highest respect for your service from your fellow veterans. Nobody should diminish the efforts of all those support forces that made it possible the campaign could be victorious, even if they were able to enjoy a beer in a hot tub after work.
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If the guys on the ground want to define who is a veteran, that is fine. It does not bother me. Is the debate productive? No. It's like the running back dismissing the kicker's role. Does the kicker take the beating? No. Is the kicker important? Definitely. We all have our job in the military. So long as we do it well, we will continue to be the best.
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If you weren't there, you weren't there... it's as simple as that. If you served during OIF/OEF but never left the US, you're a veteran, but you're not an Iraq or Afghanistan veteran.... same goes for all wars... and not everyone who served in theater is a "combat veteran" either. The only place any of this matters in at the bar or the VA.
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SGT Kevin Heilbronner
True. I’ve seen more fobbits get CABs because they went out on patrol once before deploying back home. They start calling contact where there was none. As soon as they got back, they typed up an AAR that’s sounded like fallujha. We know who did what, but it still kills me that some got 100% from the VA for ptsd because the Px ran out of snacks
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This is some of great contention. I will say No. I have ran into a Navy veteran in person that told me he served in Iraq. I informed him that I did too. So I asked what city he said the (Arabia) Gulf. I pretty much walked away. I didn't want to wear some lame ass excuse about how the water next to the country was the same thing.
If you fly in and out, I will give you that. If you drive in and out, I will give you that. But if you never even been to the country you are not a veteran of that country. If you went to support OIF and never left Kuwait you may be an OIF veteran, still I think this is a stretch. If you never went into Iraq you are not an Iraqi Veteran.
If you were to say that you were a Iraqi Veteran and never went into Iraq I would say that is an exaggeration and borderline stolen valor. If you were in a nearby warzone that is something different but I can't say that Kuwait has been a war zone, except for Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
If you fly in and out, I will give you that. If you drive in and out, I will give you that. But if you never even been to the country you are not a veteran of that country. If you went to support OIF and never left Kuwait you may be an OIF veteran, still I think this is a stretch. If you never went into Iraq you are not an Iraqi Veteran.
If you were to say that you were a Iraqi Veteran and never went into Iraq I would say that is an exaggeration and borderline stolen valor. If you were in a nearby warzone that is something different but I can't say that Kuwait has been a war zone, except for Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
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CPT (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - I agree with hitting a nerve. That is one thing I can be proud of with my career, even though I'm a non-combat veteran. I joined because my friends were part of the IA ARNG, deploying to Iraq every other year. My [naïve] thought was that if more people joined, we could decrease the op tempo.
People like that make me vomit. I joined to deploy, the Army just said no. Now that it looks like I may not be able to deploy overseas because of regulation changes, I had planned on resigning my commission, figuring that I was no good to the Army anymore. It pisses me off that people like this exist, because it makes us ALL look bad, and I'm sick of people that aren't willing to pull their weight.
As a case manager, my job was to determine deployability. Commanders always initially hated me, but quickly came to realize that I was there to help them. Soldiers in my office were told "I'm an extreme kind of guy. If you're a great Soldier trying to determine things, I'll go to the ends of the Earth to help you. If you're a shitbag trying to play the game, I'll go to the ends of the Earth...but it's to kick you off of it."
I was never more satisfied than when I could help a Soldier that wanted to go get medically clear, but also enjoyed when I could start readying the process to get a Soldier that was playing games cut off the MOB roster in a timeframe that the command could get a replacement. We had people that thought they'd play the game.....and when they lost, I loved to let the commander see their pre-deployment health assessments rating their health in "GREAT condition", then pop up with some sort of pre-existing conditions that they failed to disclose.
This is a job where you need to trust the person on your left and right to have your back and pull their weight. You can work hard in any job, but when you wear the uniform I expect 100-110% of your capabilities....
v/r,
CPT Butler
People like that make me vomit. I joined to deploy, the Army just said no. Now that it looks like I may not be able to deploy overseas because of regulation changes, I had planned on resigning my commission, figuring that I was no good to the Army anymore. It pisses me off that people like this exist, because it makes us ALL look bad, and I'm sick of people that aren't willing to pull their weight.
As a case manager, my job was to determine deployability. Commanders always initially hated me, but quickly came to realize that I was there to help them. Soldiers in my office were told "I'm an extreme kind of guy. If you're a great Soldier trying to determine things, I'll go to the ends of the Earth to help you. If you're a shitbag trying to play the game, I'll go to the ends of the Earth...but it's to kick you off of it."
I was never more satisfied than when I could help a Soldier that wanted to go get medically clear, but also enjoyed when I could start readying the process to get a Soldier that was playing games cut off the MOB roster in a timeframe that the command could get a replacement. We had people that thought they'd play the game.....and when they lost, I loved to let the commander see their pre-deployment health assessments rating their health in "GREAT condition", then pop up with some sort of pre-existing conditions that they failed to disclose.
This is a job where you need to trust the person on your left and right to have your back and pull their weight. You can work hard in any job, but when you wear the uniform I expect 100-110% of your capabilities....
v/r,
CPT Butler
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MSG (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) You are an outstanding officer and glad you stayed with us. You are more than pulling your weight, i wish there were more guys like you.
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CPT (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - They are out there. I've had a number of LTs ask me for books on leadership, and I always try to give people the "hard truth" when it comes to performances, and expect the same in return. If each person makes that positive impact on at least 2 people, we can eventually make (or keep) this the Army that we love. I figure this is the opportunity I have to make sure that nobody messes with my Soldiers after I'm gone.
v/r,
CPT Butler
v/r,
CPT Butler
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COL Charles Williams
MSG (Join to see) ATW! I understand your point, and found after 911 plenty of Colonels who could not deploy... event though they could do marathons and triathlons. I saw too many retire instead of deploying. Sad and frustrating.
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I'm from the "Cold War Era". No wars or deployments. To me Veteran is Veteran. I hold folks who have been "in country" to a higher regard.
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COL Charles Williams
All veterans deserve our thanks and our praise, regardless of when and where they serve/served.
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COL Charles Williams
No question, a veteran is a veteran. I agree... but that was not my question. I not talking about aviation assets that support the ground effort, I was more talking about folks in the AOR, but not the AOO. Life in Baghdad during the surge was nothing like life in the Green Zone, Camp Arifijan, or Qatar. That was sorta my question. Whether I stated it clearly and succinctly is another issue apparently.
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COL Charles Williams
No it is not. We had more than one Soldier killed or wounded in sleeping quarters.
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Those who have been under fire know what they accomplished in the AOs that they served, those that didn't, also know...since areas were designated as being a combat area, however fair or unfair it may seem, if someone served there they are "entlitled" to being a veteran as opposed to an "era veteran". My brother(Army) and brother-in-law(Navy) are DS/DS veterans due to their service in the AO, I am a DS/DS-era veteran since I was stuck and Ft Carson and did not deploy. I deployed for OIF twice, '03 & '05, and spent a year in Kuwait as part of ASG-Ku in support of OIF/OEF/OND and drew the pay and benefits of which you speak about. I do not view my service in '10-'11 any less than I did the first two trips over and hold no ill will towards anyone who was sent to those positions during time of conflict when Kuwait/Qatar or the other places were designated as hostile areas. but that is only my opinion and view of things.
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COL Charles Williams
Thank you for your comments and perspective SFC William Swartz Jr . I really appreciate them!!!
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Interesting how some still think in linear, or two dimensions, when modern warfare is asymmetric. A civilian enjoying a latte in Paris, as events have demonstrated, has been selected as a legitimate target by our adversaries. Here's a little perspective; During WWII, the Germans launched V-1 and V-2 missiles killing about 7,900 people and injuring thousands more. During the 1991 Gulf War, an Al Hussein missile hit the barracks of the 14th Quartermaster Detachment, a U.S. Army water purification unit, killing 13 and wounding 43. Both were "in the rear with the gear." One of these two groups were classified as non-combatant, that didn't stop them from being targeted.
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Soldiers don't decide the area considered the combat zone, the pentagon does. One can argue what is a combat veteran but not a campaign veteran, that's way above our pay grade. This being said, the Green Zone was rocketed 444 times in the year I was in Iraq also during the surge, 2006 - 2007. Three were killed at the Palace when a round exploded in the trees. The unit that replaced mine lost two when round hit the gym at Phoenix Base. There is a reason Soldiers are collecting hazardous duty pay. Not all risk is created equal, all give some and some give all. Tell the families of those above that were killed that they were not in the combat zone. Some of the units that took the highest casualties earlier in the war were transportation units moving supplies up from their base camps in Kuwait to FOBS in Iraq.
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