Posted on Feb 17, 2017
Similar to the E-2 question, how would you react to a young 2LT who is being unprofessional with a strong sense of entitlement?
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Here's the background. You are an experienced Soldier. You walk in to the commissary to see a young 2LT shopping with a headset on. You professionally and politely get the 2LT’s attention and address the deficiency. They blatantly are rude, dismiss your comment, and tell you that those rules do not apply to him as an officer. Whether you are an Officer or Enlisted, how do you react?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 445
My exposure to O-1s in the 70s left me with the solid impression that butterbars cannot pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the heel. Your mileage may vary! ;-)
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At JBLM, the Corps commander mandated that all military personnel will wear APFT uniforms if in the gym between 0530 and 0800 on duty days regardless if in leave, pass or whatever. Better be in uniform.
The Corps CSM sees a young woman in civilian work out gear and asks her rank and unit; a 1LT. Asks her if she is aware of the order, she admits she is but doesn’t agree with the order. He asks her if she’s like to go discuss it with the CG and she declined.
The Brigade Commander did get to discuss it with the three star. Minor face ripping.
The Corps CSM sees a young woman in civilian work out gear and asks her rank and unit; a 1LT. Asks her if she is aware of the order, she admits she is but doesn’t agree with the order. He asks her if she’s like to go discuss it with the CG and she declined.
The Brigade Commander did get to discuss it with the three star. Minor face ripping.
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There are 2 ways to approach this. from an NCO standpoint. "With all due respect, sir, AR 670-1 applies to all US Army soldiers, on and off duty, in and out of uniform, on and off military installation" is one approach. The second approach is rank structure. If I am not mistaken this is a CPT address the deficiency of a 2LT, in which case the 2LT has been instructed by a higher ranking Officer to fix himself. It doesn't matter if the CPT is in the same chain of command, general military authority applies here. The CPT did the right thing and attempted to correct a problem, the 2LT failed to correct himself, therefore the CPT has an obligation to inform that 2LTs chain of command, as he clearly is prepared to do.
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Sad. Well, I'm inclined to pull him aside, and go over it again, followed by giving an order, if need be. I've also been known in situations like this, to take out my rights warning card, instruct the knucklehead to stand at attention while I place them under arrest and call the MPs... that usually loosens up the audio canals...
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LTC John Wilson
Really for wearing headphones in the commissary? What happened to on the spot correction and mentoring a junior officer. sorry sir, you are way filled with your rank.
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Even as a "lowly" E-5 (Sgt. for everyone else), it is not only my duty, but "right" on a ship, to correct a "Butter bar's" behavior, because on a naval vessel, even the most innocuous actions can endanger the vessel. However, I had a run-in with an Ensign (O-1) at the base hospital on the base of all things, which on naval bases are deemed no cover/no salute areas once on the medical grounds out of respect for the sick. Anyway, this Ensign was wearing his cover on the grounds (I was not, knowing the standing orders/procedure's), and predictably, he stopped me, proceed to berate me, and even threatened reporting me to my command and demanding Captains Mast (punishment where you go before your Colonel). He asked what I had to say about it, I proceed to inform him of the rules & reg regarding naval medical grounds/facilities. He proceed to inform me that, of course, as a lowly E-5, and him being an O-1 Officer and a Gentleman that he was the shit, and could command a carrier battle group on his own. That's how far his head was up his ass. Fortunately, and unbeknownst to me, it just so happened that my very own XO (O-5) saw & heard this ass reaming I was getting from the Ensign and he decided that enough was enough and stepped in in my defense. I swear, I have never in my life seen an Ensign be reduced to less than a fuzzy private quicker, faster, or more humiliating, than this man was. My XO made him apologize to me for everything and also made sure that I was temporarily assigned to the nimrod for 10 days, to "show" him how the real Navy works. Overall, a very unpleasant experience,but I squared him away to my XO's satisfaction. Some "butter bars" are just stupid/clueless coming straight from school. This was one, fortunately he seemed to learn, but it was embarrassing to the both of us all the way through. He did learn respect for the sick though. Plus my Lt. Commander (LTC for the Army/ AF among you), did put a note of praise in the Ensign's folder, and gave me an outstanding recommendation in my personal file, along with a recommendation for some sort of ribbon and a promotion. Never got the ribbon, and it was too soon for me receiving the promotion due to time in service. Oh well. At least I had the opportunity to train and make better an Ensign. (I did have guidance not only from my XO, but some excellent E-7's through E-9's along the way, as well as other officers too)! Well, most are stupid and need to accept guidance and but occasionally you get the truly arrogant, know it all, superior ones, but there is hope for them yet. Just wish this one had not insisted on me placing my cover on my head and rendering a salute to him on medical property. Would have saved us both ten days of grief....
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
A Navy Lt CDR, (0-4) wears Golden Oak Leafs. A Navy CDR wears Silver Oak Leafs. . An Army/ USAF, LTC an 0-5, wears Silver Oak Leafs. AGREED?
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PO2 Joan MacNeill
CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025 - Yes. And an Inferior Services Major (O-4) wears gold oak leaf cluster, as does a Navy LtCdr.
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In 1984, while I was in-processing into the 44 SPS at Ellsworth, the group I was with witnessed a 2Lt giving some lip to a CMSgt over some matter. Within seconds of that conversation, the Squadron Commander, a Major, calmly asked the 2Lt into his office. The door was closed, but we could hear every word the Major was yelling as he ripped the 2Lt for about three minutes. After that, the door opened, the 2Lt stepped out, apologized to the CMSgt, and departed the Squadron Area. That 2Lt went on to become a decent Shift Commander. The CMSgt held his cool and let the Commander handle it.
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Wow! First off, I would never approach an officer in the rear to correct him. I would seek out another officer and explain the situation to him and have the other officer correct him. Who am I to tell an officer what to do? It's the rear, it's not the field and it's not hurting anyone, no one is gonna get killed. Yes, he is out of uniform, however, to walk up to an officer and challenge him in public isn't the right thing to do. You're not gonna get an extra cookie at the chow hall for doing that. I had two officers have a melt down with each other in the field. It wasn't even my unit. I was with a First Sgt of that unit. We where standing all together, when a higher ranking officer approached to find out how everything was going. That's when the melt down started. I was in shock, mouth opened, couldn't believe that this two officers were acting like children in front of me. The First Sgt tapped me on the shoulder and motioned me to follow him away from the fray. He calmly said," let the "Old Man" settle this." He was right. One officer came back later and apologize for his unprofessional behavior, the other never did. The First Sgt could have stepped in and tried to stop it, but, he wisely chose to move away from it. He let the officers police their own kind.
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There is an urban legend in the military of just such a 2LT. I heard it as occurring at 25 Light in Hawaii. The story goes thus: a brand-new 2LT was approached by the Division CSM, who started talking to him. The 2LT says "Sergeant Major, I'm an OFFICER. Don't you think you should be standing at attention when you address me?", so the CSM promptly goes to the position of attention, says what he came to say, salutes the 2LT, and goes on his way.
Later that afternoon, the 2LT is called before the company XO, a 1LT.
"Don't you EVER F*@$K WITH A CSM, EVER AGAIN! DISMISSED!"
Shortly thereafter, he is called before the Company commander, a CPT.
"Don't you EVER F@#K WITH A CSM, EVER AGAIN? DO YOU UNDERSTAND, BUTTER BAR? DISMISSED!"
Then he is called before the BN XO, a Major. Then the BN CO, a LTC. Then the BDE XO. Then the BDE commander, a full COL. Then he is called before the Division XO, and finally before the Division Commander himself. The message is always the same: "THOU SHALT KNOW THE ORDER OF THINGS".
Now, I've never heard this story actually confirmed. I have always accepted it as more of a teaching parable for young/new officers (JAG & Medical, you know who you are...) and enlisted.
Later that afternoon, the 2LT is called before the company XO, a 1LT.
"Don't you EVER F*@$K WITH A CSM, EVER AGAIN! DISMISSED!"
Shortly thereafter, he is called before the Company commander, a CPT.
"Don't you EVER F@#K WITH A CSM, EVER AGAIN? DO YOU UNDERSTAND, BUTTER BAR? DISMISSED!"
Then he is called before the BN XO, a Major. Then the BN CO, a LTC. Then the BDE XO. Then the BDE commander, a full COL. Then he is called before the Division XO, and finally before the Division Commander himself. The message is always the same: "THOU SHALT KNOW THE ORDER OF THINGS".
Now, I've never heard this story actually confirmed. I have always accepted it as more of a teaching parable for young/new officers (JAG & Medical, you know who you are...) and enlisted.
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SGT Randall Smith
This happens. When stationed in Germany in 1967 The Bn CSM to me to get 1Lt Reed to report to his office. When I told Lt Reed this he told me to " tell that lard ass to get off his butt and come to my office." I had been a buck sgt about 3 months and I really did not want to tell the CSM this. He had me tell him exactly what was said. I was then told to tell the young man that LTC Greenberg wanted to speak to him if he had the time. When we got back the CSM led the Lt into the Col's office and shut the door.
There was some loud talking and plenty of "Yes Sir's". He was told that when the CSM spoke it was the same as the Col. talking and to never cross him again. He was to explain to all the new Lt's how this worked.
He said to one of the Buck Sgt's in his office that he would show that stupid Sgt that he would never mess with an officer again. Some how that got back to the CSM and the Lt was on orders to Nam 3 weeks later. There are just some things not done in the old Army or new Army.
There was some loud talking and plenty of "Yes Sir's". He was told that when the CSM spoke it was the same as the Col. talking and to never cross him again. He was to explain to all the new Lt's how this worked.
He said to one of the Buck Sgt's in his office that he would show that stupid Sgt that he would never mess with an officer again. Some how that got back to the CSM and the Lt was on orders to Nam 3 weeks later. There are just some things not done in the old Army or new Army.
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CW4 William Kessinger
The NCO corps is the the backbone of the Army and always will be. Thank God for that stability.
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If in uniform, it's not part of the uniform. Advise them that rules/regulations apply to all Soldiers regardless of rank. Show him your ID card rank and request again telling him protocol applies both on POST and off POST. If they disrespect you again, you advise him that he is not only disrespecting the US Army uniform, but also a superior officer. Request his ID card and get his personal information. Contact his chain of command for further discussions of administrative application of UCMJ for two infractions, the uniform, then addressing a superior officer. Both show a lack of officer material and professionalism. This is also true if an enlisted person who can call him out on the same issue. Get his name, snap a cell photo, process it up the chain of command.
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