To Shave or Not to Shave? That is the question.

Honestly, I'll chance it. Also, the mask doesn't filter out carbon monoxide. You need a contained suit for that, which allows for a beard, which firefighters in many places have. A mask without a carried oxygen source does you little good in a fire. I am a respiratory therapist, with a very thorough understanding of what it is we are defending against. I don't buy any argument that a day's missed shave should be the most important part of my day. Nope, still not convinced. Good try though.

SSgt Tye Keppler - If you take a look at most of the pictures of SF in theater, you'll note the absence of a protective mask. They carry it, or not, based on risk.
A beard can prevent a proper seal of the protective mask, but the length permitted for a Soldier with a shaving profile shouldn't interfere with achieving a seal.
If there is a risk, or scheduled training, shave. No risk, no scheduled training, pick the length, grooming standard (e.g. edged, no more than 1" in length, no lines cut into it, no coloring blue, whatever the decision makers decide), and update AR 670-1.

GySgt Dawson Webb - Us old ones still knew that even with the reg and the label saying DO NOT STARCH, if you weren't breaking starch twice a day at the dog and pony show you were wrong. 1SGs were quick to inform "that's not starch, that's sizing" (of course, sizing that isn't made from vegetable starch is made from plastics and give the sharpest creases). In any case, Garrison BDUs are not Field BDUs, and if the flag goes up, our Garrison BDUs will stand waiting in the corner of our wall lockers for our return.

When did the services change the crease in the uniforms?

The Israeli army has developed a mask that seals over bearded faces.

I have a cheesy mustache, I've had a cheesy mustache since 4 July 69. I made it to SSG with a cheesy mustache and to LTC with a Cheesy mustache so LT maybe if you grew a cheesy mustache you could be a success too. just advice from an old soldier.

LTC Bink Romanick Thanks for the advice sir. But it would never work. I've tried growing just a mustache before. There's no way I would be promoted. The board would be laughing too hard. :)

You do make some valid points. However, in my opinion, the single most important argument to maintain the standard is for the preservation of uniformity. As military members, we are trained from the very beginning that there is something larger than the individual. That sense of spirit de corps and dedication to the unit as a whole are reinforced in the wearing of a uniform that every person must wear in the exact same manner. Sadly, it appears that the military is contemplating more and more the open expression of individuality over the whole. I don't care specifically about the wearing of a beard. Nor do I care specifically about men wearing earrings. However, when in a uniform of the United States Military, you should present a standard that is EXACTLY uniform with the military member standing beside you.

I see some folks would rather their personal opinion be applied, rather than what the Army policy is with regard to shaving profiles for a medical condition or religious accommodation.
Your duty and responsibility is to enforce the Army standard, not enforce your personal standard or bias.
You are 100% permitted to enforce your level upon yourself, but the Army's standard is the one that applies to your Soldiers.
If the Army COS decided to change AR 670-1 to permit beards, it is likely nobody at our grade level would be consulted. Yet, if it were published, that would be the standard.

SSgt (Join to see) - Shaving is different because it doesn't keep the Soldier from performing their duties. A Soldier with a shaving profile and beard groomed IAW AR 670-1, is meeting the standard.
If a Soldier with the shaving profile there are no less than 4 people who own that. The Soldier, and the Soldier's first, second, and third level NCO in the NCOSC.

You are the only one here I agree with.

As you already anticipated, I must disagree for several reasons.

First, religious exemptions, are you serious that you would be totally willing to essentially strip a service member of their first amendment right to freedom of religion, a right that they are voluntarily signing-up to defend?! By definition, Congress cannot make laws that prohibit the free practice of religion. On the flip, they cannot make laws to establish a religion as they must adhere to the separation of church and state. It’s just as bad under the first amendment to force a particular religion on a citizen as it is to deny them of the free practice of their chosen religion. After all, it’s not just me saying this, but the Bill of Rights!

Besides, how many excellent service members would you turn away if this is the case?! I’m talking about qualified people that the services need! This would be detrimental to the services by denying those with specialized, necessary skills and training access to being able to serve using those specialized skills. It doesn’t make a difference if it’s a Sikh that wants to enter as a Cyber Officer or an Orthodox Jew that would make a fine Rabbi in the Chaplain Corps. You’d be screwing the service over this, aside from denying citizens their rights.

Second, medical exemptions, unfortunately certainly painful skin conditions exist whether you like it or not, e.g. pseudofolliculitis (PFB), which also happens to be most prevalent in the African American community. So, whether it’s actually a racist move or not, it would absolutely be perceived as a racist stance, and would open up the services to so much litigation that your great grand children would still likely witness the fallout! Many young men don’t even realize that this is a factor before entering the military. So, it won’t be easily caught at MEPS, and even if it was, again, we absolutely need qualified individuals to join our all volunteer services!

That begs the question, would you believe it to be a more professional appearance if a serviceman has a face covered with nasty nodules and bumps because they must shave?

A simply policy of using a trimmer on its lowest setting would usually alleviate the effects of PFB.

Now, legally speaking, the Eight Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that not hiring those based on shaving requirements is in violation of the Title VII Civil Rights Act of 1964. Yes, there have been other rulings, such as the one by Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals that ruled the opposite, however, that was not precluding general hiring, but in consideration of a job where SCBA is the norm, rather than the exception (firefighters). There are many jobs across all services and some will never need to wear a SCBA. I could absolutely understand that it would not be prudent to allow someone to be regularly exposed to smoke inhalation, but that has nothing to do with the general hiring of qualified individuals. That’s clearly the distinction between the above two cases. Besides, nobody should have the need to protect themselves from chemical and biological weapons these days as there have been treaties for nearly a century, so any country or entity that would dare probably would be a “parking lot” within 24 hours. Additionally, the “confidence chamber” in bootcamp has people with PFB exemptions going through all the time and have no exposure to the gas until the planned removal of their generic mask.

To note, I did have to require carrying a mask and kit sometime around 1998 during the beginning of OSW as we believed Iraq could turn those weapons on us, but that’s an exception rather than a norm. Ultimately, those thoughts are your own, but whatever the basis is to your reasoning, I guarantee that the perception would not be taken lightly and could be extremely detrimental to the services as it’s opening up a HUGE “can of worms.” I would implore someone at your level to really ponder these outcomes for the good of the service that you clearly love. Believe me from a hiring standpoint as I eventually worked my way up to CFO of a global manufacturing company before having to medically retire.

Sgt (Join to see) - I stand corrected.

I agree completely.

I agree with the premise that IF, a beard can be authorized as a religious accommodation, THEN, it has been determined that a beard can be worn without interfering with the performance of duties, AND can be worn to present a neat, and military appearance, SO, there is no duty, or professional appearance problems with a beard worn to a prescribed standard.
However, permitting service members to wear an item of their religious practice, or grow a beard is an accommodation, based on religion. It is NOT discrimination against anyone else, nor should it be claimed to be, as there is a difference between an accommodation and discrimination.

If a military Catholic Chaplain were to achieve Bishop status he would only be wearing a miter, (the proper name for "those really tall jewel-studded Cardinal hats") during mass while performing one of the sacraments. The rest of the time he would be wearing a zucchetto (skull cap similar to a yamulka worn by some Jewish males). If there are any military Catholic Chaplins (now or in the future) considering the limited time frame the miter is worn I think the DOD would be considered it a reasonable religious accommodation.
Perhaps you can come up with a question about a religion, or a religious practice that is based on Department of Defense Policy, instead of the issue you have with the whole thing? Please do those of us that are somewhat familiar with regulations and policies a favor, and do your due diligence prior to spouting off about what those of other cultures and religions may want. The use of correct terms would also be appreciated; Muslims practice the religion of Islam.

I went through the course as a young Corporal in 1989.....As far as using that skill, we were in and out of the masks during Desert Storm quite often as was the case a few times in early OIF.

Agreed, you do look like a cross between a serial killer and a pedophile.
I got the same comments. Although, I still sport a goat. I wonder what that says?

In a combat roll clean shaven has it's place .  Try to get a good seal on a gas mask with  a beard .   I had a mustache for years my wife hated it . So it has been gone ever since .   I tried a full beard for a short time and I was told I looked like Rasputin .  That was the last day of a beard for me .  

SSgt Scott Walters - Sorry but that is a van dyke. A goatee is simply facial hair below the mouth and no mustache.

At first, I thought this was going to show you in two different operations. Either way, I agree with you. There is still a part of me that goes back to my mission in Afghanistan. We were to win the hearts and minds of the people. How were we supposed to do that, when our 1st world Modernized country come toting guns and gear that these people have never seen before? But you are right, it instills fear, it does do that.

I remember back in the 1970s I saw a JG with a big red beard at the Little Creek O Mess. So I says you must be a Beach Master and he says no, CB.

This right here, I've talked with many people in other government agencies the are of the opinion that we should look the part of the warriors we say we are. We're not business men we're fighters and the more we look like the more we'll act like it.

I have the sudden urge for a shot of whiskey in a dirty glass.

That is a little bit funny. Lol

I didn't want to go over board.

As a firefighter you must shave to maintain a seal for fit testing. In the military we must maintain a seal on our masks to prevent infiltration of Blister, Nerve, Irritant etc... Do you want to be the medic that has to shave that persons face back to address this issue? SO the answer is simple shave and when you get out grow it back.

CPT Michael Barden

From a 10 level maintenance standpoint you would have to supply it yourself. We do not issue razors and shaving cream do we?

It is the soldier's job to ensure the seal on their equipment and make sure it works properly.

I'm also pretty positive that most service members will be aware of training or an upcoming fit test, so as any good service member who is disciplined, should prepare themselves prior to showing up to test. If not, then reprimand, counsel, whatever works to jar their brain housing group.

that jar will come in handy with the big green weenie too

I don't think within each of the services, any NCO or CO would allow grooming standards to run wild. I'm positive that if guidance was established, good NCO's would enforce the standards and ensure that their subordinates don't show up to work/formation looking like a bag of garbage. We currently deal with Hair styles with our Hair grooming standards. I don't see the difference when it comes to shaving standards. I would say, If you can't grow a beard, it grows in patchy and looks like garbage, tell them to shave it. Because at that point, based on a supposed new grooming standard, must maintain professional appearance, that individual would be in violation.

"To change this policy would being allowing it to run wild. Too many would try to push the limit to it's extreme, if not beyond. Way too many styles, sizes, and shapes. "

The same could be said of allowing hair. There are many shapes, sizes, and styles. Some people do indeed "push the limit" (although pushing it or not, this isn't a graded scale, you either meet the standard or you don't). Yet we manage to get along just fine without all having to look like a bunch of skinheads. Anarchy has not swept through the ranks.

I agree there will be a handful of asshats that cause trouble. They will be the same asshats that always manage to cause trouble in any given situation.

SFC (Join to see), then we put out a very specific regulation. Beards are actually quite simple to maintain, easier than an Army regulation haircut matter of fact. I sported a beard for 18 years before joining the Army.

"Appearance of the beard will be uniform, not patchy or unkempt. Lenght of the beard will not exceed XX. No faddish or trendy styles. Beard will not grow up past a line between the lower part of the nostrils to the middle of the ear opening. Beard swill not grow down past the general point where the jaw encounters the neck."

Or something to that effect.

Just as we currently do with haircuts, they dont meet standard, they get it fixed, after they sign their counseling.

v/r

SGT Hector Rojas, yeah I think we agree on that. It seems your comment should be directed towards SFC Collin McMillion.

Apparently I can't tag people, not sure how everyone else seems to do it so easily.