Posted on Mar 25, 2015
To Shave or Not to Shave? That is the question.
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In modern times, many police and military forces prohibit beards for one important reason that came up during World War I. In order to get a clean seal on a gas mask, you must have a clean face, so soldiers made sure to shave. They may or may not have been worried about the pulling of beards during hand-to-hand combat, as Alexander the Great was.
Excluding limited exemptions for religious accommodation, the United States Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps have policies that prohibit beards on the basis of hygiene, the necessity of a good seal for chemical weapon protective masks, and the official position that uniform personal appearance and grooming contribute to discipline and a sense of camaraderie.
All branches of the U.S. Military currently prohibit beards for a vast majority of recruits, although some mustaches are still allowed, based on policies that were initiated during the period of World War I.
So, the discussion is, Should military branches change the policy on shaving due to a legacy concern of chemical/biological warfare from WWI?
IMO, Proper grooming standards should be considered. If a service member wants to grow facial hair while not in a deployed location where the threat of a chemical/biological attack could occur (this is hardly in any theater of operations anymore due to many regulations implemented internationally to destroy & manage chemical/biological weapons), they should be allowed to, but in consideration of grooming standards (i.e. length of facial hair, must represent professional appearance, etc.)
Photo: U.S. Army Captain Tejdeep Singh Rattan, 2010
Excluding limited exemptions for religious accommodation, the United States Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps have policies that prohibit beards on the basis of hygiene, the necessity of a good seal for chemical weapon protective masks, and the official position that uniform personal appearance and grooming contribute to discipline and a sense of camaraderie.
All branches of the U.S. Military currently prohibit beards for a vast majority of recruits, although some mustaches are still allowed, based on policies that were initiated during the period of World War I.
So, the discussion is, Should military branches change the policy on shaving due to a legacy concern of chemical/biological warfare from WWI?
IMO, Proper grooming standards should be considered. If a service member wants to grow facial hair while not in a deployed location where the threat of a chemical/biological attack could occur (this is hardly in any theater of operations anymore due to many regulations implemented internationally to destroy & manage chemical/biological weapons), they should be allowed to, but in consideration of grooming standards (i.e. length of facial hair, must represent professional appearance, etc.)
Photo: U.S. Army Captain Tejdeep Singh Rattan, 2010
USA
US Marine Corps (USMC)
Shaving
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 132
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I think that it is PC Crap that I can't speak, hang, or put anything out that is with my religion but we can bend to theirs. It is Army regulation CLEAN SHAVEN. they should be NO different! Don't like it, Don't join!
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Capt (Join to see)
I guess I can see where you are coming from. They can express there religion, but you can't.
But I will say the focus of this isn't just about the religious aspect. It is about out dated policies based on WWI era threats.
But I will say the focus of this isn't just about the religious aspect. It is about out dated policies based on WWI era threats.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
To my knowledge SFC Swanstnon only thing allowed is a mustache. We have regs on that, so to me a face that has no hair is clean shaven. Am I reading the reg wrong? Asking for your opinion.
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SGT Bryon Sergent
Sorry SFC. I wasn't attacking the statement or you. I knew that there were medical profiles, and medical reasons. Just tired of the fact that everyone is catering to THERE religious beliefs and if I want to pray or have prayer or talk about Christ or put a scripture on my door, or anything else We as Christians are belittled, told to take it down or not to mention it at work. Answer this. If I wanted to take time out during what ever we where doing to pray as a christian, would they allow it! NO they would say do it on your own time. But they can. Where does it stop. Why are they afforded more than the christian. Why can't we all worship they way we seem fit. Some have problems that we say a prayer before going out on mission. Some have a problem when the Chaplin says a prayer at a ceremony. It is simple, just like at the dinner table. How does anyone else know that you don't have your head bowed or not praying if they have there eyes closed and have there head bowed. You don't if you are doing the right thing. But wearing a turban and a bread is permissible, and stopping to pray multiple times a day is. I have been lucky and been in units that are in the south and we don't mind it. I don't have a problem with you or anyone else for that matter praying to whom ever you do. Just think it is wrong that we cater to them!
Not attacking anyone or there beliefs. With the way I view this question this is how I see it. bending over backwards for someone from another country and not to offend them, when we offend our own and say that it is not allowed.
Not attacking anyone or there beliefs. With the way I view this question this is how I see it. bending over backwards for someone from another country and not to offend them, when we offend our own and say that it is not allowed.
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Well, when his pro mask doesn't seal and he's sucking up nerve agent he'll wish he had shaved.
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Capt (Join to see)
Really, that is how I feel too. If he is willing to take that risk, if the threat does exist in an area where we are deployed, then good luck.
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Capt (Join to see)
I know I sure as hell didn't. But that was mainly because I knew better and 2, I had enough other shit to worry about each day. Basically, I trained to use it before I left, I had a C bag with it available, but everyone, EVERYONE knew that the threat was non-existent.
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This is a tough one. My major issue is Uniformity.
I currently wear what can be loosely called a "beard." It is neatly trimmed, short, and lined to compliment my face. It is just above "peach fuzz" stage in length, because any more than that bothers the heck out of me. This length would annoy the hell out of a 1stSgt even though it is "Neat & Clean" in appearance, as it's about a 10~ days growth.
Could I grow a longer one? Sure can. Do I? Nope.
Now imagine 1 million service members with varying lengths of facial hair, then we decide on "approved styles" from handle bars to van dykes yo chin straps... because we must have a policy for everything. Or we can have a mustache policy and a clean shaved policy, and a very narrow exception for Sikhs/Religious.
I currently wear what can be loosely called a "beard." It is neatly trimmed, short, and lined to compliment my face. It is just above "peach fuzz" stage in length, because any more than that bothers the heck out of me. This length would annoy the hell out of a 1stSgt even though it is "Neat & Clean" in appearance, as it's about a 10~ days growth.
Could I grow a longer one? Sure can. Do I? Nope.
Now imagine 1 million service members with varying lengths of facial hair, then we decide on "approved styles" from handle bars to van dykes yo chin straps... because we must have a policy for everything. Or we can have a mustache policy and a clean shaved policy, and a very narrow exception for Sikhs/Religious.
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Capt (Join to see)
Cpl Tim Palmer That's the timeline I was referencing. However, although an effective means of delivery, there are a lot challenges when it comes to dispersion. So, even then, almost 80 years later, 1 scenario.
I'm just saying, overall, in that timeline and thereafter, policy can be written to govern grooming standards for beards. Our intelligence collection methods have vastly improved, even since 1991, and our ability to determine the threat of the utilization of a chemical weapon is far greater than it was 91 years ago. Simply put, we know the threat, and we know the capabilities. If the threat exists, then execute guidance that says, You will deploy with chem gear and you will deploy clean shaven and remain clean shaven due to a legitimate threat of chemical weapons.
I'm just saying, overall, in that timeline and thereafter, policy can be written to govern grooming standards for beards. Our intelligence collection methods have vastly improved, even since 1991, and our ability to determine the threat of the utilization of a chemical weapon is far greater than it was 91 years ago. Simply put, we know the threat, and we know the capabilities. If the threat exists, then execute guidance that says, You will deploy with chem gear and you will deploy clean shaven and remain clean shaven due to a legitimate threat of chemical weapons.
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SFC (Join to see)
There are many sizes and styles of hair authorized, yet we manage to get by just fine. By that logic we (men and women alike) should all shave our heads to stave off the imminent chaos that is wrought by looking every so slightly different from the person next to you in formation.
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In the above photo, it looks like they have changed the standard for women's hair length.
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Too many f…ting individuals in an army that’s supposed to be a team. Military wastes a lot of resources trying to accommodate every little fricking issue. Army= kill and destroy enemy. Air Force = fly and kill and destroy enemy. Navy = sail and fly to kill and destroy enemy. Marines = go forward kill and destroy until nothing left. Coast guard = help boat people.
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People join the army the army does not join people. Set a standard and enforce it.
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My religious beliefs says smoking pot gives me the inner power to connect with my inner self
See what can happen when you open up the pandora box
See what can happen when you open up the pandora box
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In the interest of warfare, just curious if anyone has had to MOPP up before in combat? If you have ever had to, you know the importance of that seal. For those of you who never had to, I doubt it will ever fully be understood. My subordinate Marines would pack their gas masks at the bottom of their pack, gassed them with CS twice and that never happened again. Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance, our job in the military is to be prepared for the possible, not just the most likely. Professionally, I feel it is in the best interest to follow that line. Weapon, gear, body, it is the whole package, not just gear, not just weapon and not just body.
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I guess people dont get it until you go into the gas chamber with a full beard. THATS GOING TO HURT.
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If you do NOT shave, your NBC mask wont fit, you can put it on but, if there is some kind of chemical attack, You will not get a proper seal.
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“Modify the standard” is a passive-aggressive way of saying “change the standard”. If women can wear makeup, why can’t men have beards? They kinda serve the same purpose.
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Assimilation into military culture and adherence to standing orders or regulations is what makes an "individual" part of something bigger than personal ideals. Adherence to standards that allow the general public to differentiate a Professional appearance (we're all representing our respective branches 24/7) from an average civilian is at the heart of this question - not throwback World War era decision making.
IMHO, it's just unprofessional and outrageous that we have come to this point where individual flowers are railing to starkly stand out from the professionals around them. Ask anyone who has served - sacrifices are on the plan of the day...and shaving to maintain a professional appearance isn't even a glimmer of a thought.
IMHO, it's just unprofessional and outrageous that we have come to this point where individual flowers are railing to starkly stand out from the professionals around them. Ask anyone who has served - sacrifices are on the plan of the day...and shaving to maintain a professional appearance isn't even a glimmer of a thought.
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The question was, should the services change the policy to permit beards.
It has digressed to whining about folks complying with the standards that the most senior leadership has determined to be the standard. Specifically, religious accommodations and medical profiles.
To those who say meet the standard or move out and kick rocks, or it's discrimination to me to let them do it, but not me: Choke yourself out, I'll wait while you recover.
First, it is not your duty to decide the standard, or apply your standard to anyone, except yourself. It is your duty to enforce the standard. You don't get to decide it.
If a Soldier is on a shaving profile and isn't grooming the beard properly, his supervisor is at fault, as well as that Soldier. Fix the problem, which is the supervisor failing to enforce the standard.
If leadership at DoD decided to permit the wearing of beards as a religious accommodation, suck it up and get out of your feelings. Be a leader, not a biased whiner.
HOWEVER, with regard to the question posed, I do believe that the medical and religious accommodations have made the argument that, other than resistance to change, and the personal opinion of those making the decisions, there is no reason beards shouldn't be permitted, at least in garrison. Further, I posit that the leadership making the decision, have determined that unit level leaders would not enforce the standard were it to be changed.
IF a beard can be worn as a religious or medical accommodation without interfering with the performance of duties, THEN, a beard CAN be worn without it being for an accommodation.
IF a beard can be worn as a religious or medical accommodation AND present a neat and military appearance, THEN a beard CAN be worn and present a neat and military appearance without it being for an accommodation. (The beard in the photo is neat and edged)
For the record, I voted to keep the standard for no reason other than tradition, and my being full of coffee and hate.
It has digressed to whining about folks complying with the standards that the most senior leadership has determined to be the standard. Specifically, religious accommodations and medical profiles.
To those who say meet the standard or move out and kick rocks, or it's discrimination to me to let them do it, but not me: Choke yourself out, I'll wait while you recover.
First, it is not your duty to decide the standard, or apply your standard to anyone, except yourself. It is your duty to enforce the standard. You don't get to decide it.
If a Soldier is on a shaving profile and isn't grooming the beard properly, his supervisor is at fault, as well as that Soldier. Fix the problem, which is the supervisor failing to enforce the standard.
If leadership at DoD decided to permit the wearing of beards as a religious accommodation, suck it up and get out of your feelings. Be a leader, not a biased whiner.
HOWEVER, with regard to the question posed, I do believe that the medical and religious accommodations have made the argument that, other than resistance to change, and the personal opinion of those making the decisions, there is no reason beards shouldn't be permitted, at least in garrison. Further, I posit that the leadership making the decision, have determined that unit level leaders would not enforce the standard were it to be changed.
IF a beard can be worn as a religious or medical accommodation without interfering with the performance of duties, THEN, a beard CAN be worn without it being for an accommodation.
IF a beard can be worn as a religious or medical accommodation AND present a neat and military appearance, THEN a beard CAN be worn and present a neat and military appearance without it being for an accommodation. (The beard in the photo is neat and edged)
For the record, I voted to keep the standard for no reason other than tradition, and my being full of coffee and hate.
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As far as I know, earlier, the Canadian Army guy, Harjit Sajjan, the Defense Minister of Canada now, he had same problem. But, he passed that gas mask seal test with beard and hairs. Additionally, I talked with some other Sikh guys in military and they said its not an issue. So, hopefully, we should have that and considering the religion as well.
Thanks the United States armed forces to allow guys with beard and hairs.
Thanks the United States armed forces to allow guys with beard and hairs.
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When a person puts on the uniform of the American soldier, we leave ourselves second to serving the US and place much of our personal life on hold. I strongly believe that standards are standards and rules are rules. At all times and places we should look our best in uniform. Unless a man has PSB after shaving, he should not have a beard. As a LEO, I was always concerned with female officers that wore long hair or braids. If a bad guy grabbed and pulled it, it could be deadly. Though we live in a politically correct society. That rules these days.....
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Hard to figure what all the hoopla is about. Facial hair is something that the majority of men must deal with in their lives. It does not interfere with day to day training and so should be tolerated if not accepted. If the threat of chemical warfare became a real worry it does not take that long to get rid of it, and the great thing is that it will come back all on it's own on down the line.
There are alternatives to the facial sealing type of masks that have been the standard for the U.S. services and from what I have seen some of them can be donned a lot easier than the old type.
There are alternatives to the facial sealing type of masks that have been the standard for the U.S. services and from what I have seen some of them can be donned a lot easier than the old type.
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I just think swaring alegience to the USA should take precedence over religious costumes!
ALVIN STANLEY PO1, ETR
ALVIN STANLEY PO1, ETR
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SSgt (Join to see)
*swearing. And you've already sworn allegiance if you're in the U.S. military... so religious garb shouldn't be an issue.
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for gas mask to seal right it needs to shaved if my hubby has to do this so dose he his god will for give him
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