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Over the weekend at a training conference an NCO giving a class on standards and discipline asked the group to stand up. He then asked for everyone to sit down whose back pockets were buttoned. I was not one of the NCO's who sat as I always keep my left rear pocket unbuttoned and tucked in as this is where my wallet is at. He then attributed this as a lack of discipline.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
Uniforms
NCOs
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 86
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INTEGRITY - To do what is legally and morally right; even when no one is looking. (Even under my pocket flap to see if it is buttoned). <right or wrong>
AR 670-1, Chapter 3 a.(3) Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped. <right or wrong>
I wish the voting allowed a different answer. My response is that if there is a zipper, then zip it. If there are buttons, then button them. But, I would consider it a stretch to call a Senior NCO a "soup sandwich" for having the rear trouser pocket (with wallet) unbuttoned.
I do take pride in expressing to my new recruits that there are 12 pockets on their ACUs (not including the knee and elbow pad pockets). Of those 12 pockets, only two are not required to be "closed" and those are the two front trouser pockets which have not buttons, velcro, or zipper.
"I always maintain my arms, my equipment, and myself." [this includes camel backs, duffel bags, wall lockers, uniforms, etc . . . ]
AR 670-1, Chapter 3 a.(3) Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped. <right or wrong>
I wish the voting allowed a different answer. My response is that if there is a zipper, then zip it. If there are buttons, then button them. But, I would consider it a stretch to call a Senior NCO a "soup sandwich" for having the rear trouser pocket (with wallet) unbuttoned.
I do take pride in expressing to my new recruits that there are 12 pockets on their ACUs (not including the knee and elbow pad pockets). Of those 12 pockets, only two are not required to be "closed" and those are the two front trouser pockets which have not buttons, velcro, or zipper.
"I always maintain my arms, my equipment, and myself." [this includes camel backs, duffel bags, wall lockers, uniforms, etc . . . ]
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MSG (Join to see)
I wish I wouldn've seen this before I responded to MAJ C and wrote my response to this thread, but it further goes to prove my point. And to show me there are still NCO's out there who believe in doing what's right and not what's convient. Thanks SSG Bryant.
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Sgt Dale Briggs
I didn’t do the poll, but rules are rules. Is it that much of a big deal to button that one button? I don’t see undisciplined as much as a bit of convenience. Your an NCO you follow the rules or your not capable on enforcing them to your Jrs. All in or out imo, what rule might they want to challenge if your doing the same thing? You going to write them up?
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Cpl (Join to see)
True statement... and now that garrison life is in the immediate future, things like buttons being buttoned will replace things like are their mortars inbound.
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If the reg says keep it buttoned, and you don't keep it buttoned, are you afraid of possible repercussions from your superiors? Do you think you will lose the respect of your fellow Servicemembers? If not, you probably don't have anything to worry about. If you have to wonder about it, button your pockets. My TRADOC viewpoint: If I am correcting Soldiers for chewing gum and the wrong PT socks in formation, my pockets aren't going to be violating the regs or policy letters either.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC Watkins, thanks for the reply. It's not about fear of repercussions for me, not fear of losing respect. It's about doing the right things because I expect others to also do the right things. My buttons are now buttoned. Lol.
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SFC Gary Fox
When I was an MP Instructor, a female 1SG was chewing out one of my female students about her hair. There were quite a few other Soldiers around. My respect for the 1SG dropped a few notches because of how she was conducting this "counseling." Berating a Soldier in front of their peers is just wrong. While I watched, I observed the 1SG was wearing bright red nail polish. My respect for the 1SG dropped even more. I took another good look and noticed the 1SG was wearing her blonde hair up using a black scrunchy. Respect level dropped even further.
When the 1SG started calling the Soldier "stupid" I decided to intercede. I told the 1SG this was one of my students and I would take care of it and sent the student on to her class. I then asked the 1SG if I could speak to her privately. We stepped out of earshot from everyone else and told her AR 670-1 states females are not to wear lipstick or nail polishthat distinctly contrast with their complexion, that detract from the uniform, or that are extreme. I then pointed out her nail polish was bright red. I then informed her AR 670-1 states all hair holding devices must be plain and of a color as close to the soldier’s hair as is possible or clear. I reminded her her hair was blonde and she was holding it up with a black scrunchy. She then asked, "Who the hell do you think you are to tell a 1SG they are in violation of any regulation?" I told her I was a professional NCO who had an inherent responsibility to enforce regulations and make on the spot corrections regardless of the other person's rank. She then turned around and went back to her office.
I know that Soldier who was getting chewed by the 1SG noticed the red nail polish. Does anyone think she lost respect for the 1SG as I did. When you make an on the spot correction, you darn well should have your own ducks in a row.
By the way, in Iraq I corrected an O-6 who was wearing a tab that said, "INFIDEL" over his unit patch. He was sitting with another O-6 in the dining facility when I told him he should remove it as he was setting a bad example for Soldiers. He congratulated me. He said he had been wearing it every day for three weeks and I was the first NCO to come up and tell him he was wrong. I replied, "Thank you sir, but you would you please remove it now?" He laughed and did. He said he was trying to make a point to the other O-6 that NCOs no longer had the balls to correct officers.
When the 1SG started calling the Soldier "stupid" I decided to intercede. I told the 1SG this was one of my students and I would take care of it and sent the student on to her class. I then asked the 1SG if I could speak to her privately. We stepped out of earshot from everyone else and told her AR 670-1 states females are not to wear lipstick or nail polishthat distinctly contrast with their complexion, that detract from the uniform, or that are extreme. I then pointed out her nail polish was bright red. I then informed her AR 670-1 states all hair holding devices must be plain and of a color as close to the soldier’s hair as is possible or clear. I reminded her her hair was blonde and she was holding it up with a black scrunchy. She then asked, "Who the hell do you think you are to tell a 1SG they are in violation of any regulation?" I told her I was a professional NCO who had an inherent responsibility to enforce regulations and make on the spot corrections regardless of the other person's rank. She then turned around and went back to her office.
I know that Soldier who was getting chewed by the 1SG noticed the red nail polish. Does anyone think she lost respect for the 1SG as I did. When you make an on the spot correction, you darn well should have your own ducks in a row.
By the way, in Iraq I corrected an O-6 who was wearing a tab that said, "INFIDEL" over his unit patch. He was sitting with another O-6 in the dining facility when I told him he should remove it as he was setting a bad example for Soldiers. He congratulated me. He said he had been wearing it every day for three weeks and I was the first NCO to come up and tell him he was wrong. I replied, "Thank you sir, but you would you please remove it now?" He laughed and did. He said he was trying to make a point to the other O-6 that NCOs no longer had the balls to correct officers.
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I keep a tourniquet in my back pocket. Those buttons could cost you your life.
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SSG (Join to see)
If you read my comment I said our SOP. But, 670 does say that all buttons must be buttoned.
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CPT William Jones
You can unbutton the pocket with first aid equipment on way to patient without loss of time and it won’t fall out if secured.
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let the little things slip and its just a matter of time before theres a landslide.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
MAJ (Join to see) The ‘old’ Army was very concerned with Attention to details!
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I voted for button your pockets but want to elaborate. I also carry a wallet in my back pocket but I do button my pocket. I constantly need my CAC card so I just put it in my front pocket to avoid having to constantly button/unbutton the buttons. I have read the replies here and agree the Army will not necessarily fail because of a couple buttons, but where does it stop?! I could do that same scenario all day long with different things for example
White socks: saw this all the time as a PSG
No ID tags: see it all the time in TRADOC
NO ID card: see it occasionally everywhere
Wrong belt/wrong color belt
If we let one thing go or deem it not a big deal, what else are we letting slide?
White socks: saw this all the time as a PSG
No ID tags: see it all the time in TRADOC
NO ID card: see it occasionally everywhere
Wrong belt/wrong color belt
If we let one thing go or deem it not a big deal, what else are we letting slide?
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1SG (Join to see)
Sir you are correct about the ID tags in the older version of the AR 670-1. But you add to my point with the socks. I only used white to make my point but as you showed interest in the old reg as it pertained to the ID tags, the old reg stated olive green or black, the new one states tan, green or black. So are we using regulations or not?
Also want to point out that everything sold at MCSS is not authorized for wear in an Army uniform. They also stock items for the other services as well as novelty items.
Also want to point out that everything sold at MCSS is not authorized for wear in an Army uniform. They also stock items for the other services as well as novelty items.
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1SG (Join to see)
Sir I just don't see how that can be your justified outlook?!? So when one of your Soldiers decide that his recreational use of an illegal substance is " not anyone's (including the Army's) business" then he is good to go? I know that is far fetched but disobeying a regulation is disobeying a regulation.
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I admit my back pocket is unbutton about half the time because I don't always remember to button it. If I'm going to take my top off for some reason I will double check to ensure it is closed. But I don't always think of it when my top is on. Am I right...probably not. Am I lacking discipline I don't think so
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SFC (Join to see)
I also leave my back left pocket unbuttoned as it holds my wallet and I am constantly in and out of it getting my CAC card out. I think there are many more obvious signs of lack of discipline than my pocket button on some of the Soldiers today.
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I would like to relate a little story regarding attention to detail. If you don't like story time move along.
In boot camp one of the first things emphasized by my DI's was left over right. Everything we did from day one was left over right. We had to put our left sock on before our right sock. We had to put our left leg in our pants before our right. We had to put our left arm in the shirt before the right. Left boots before right. Boot/shoe laces were left over right. You get the picture it was left over right from day one. And if we were observed not practicing left over right not only did we hit the pit/mini-grinder but my bunk-mate, my fire team, my squad, my platoon would hit the pit/min-grinder with me. There was a great emphasis on this, as well as many other little intangibles. To make this clear there was painful retribution exacted if there were offenses to the left over right rule.
This went on for weeks, with recruits not really understanding the significance to the requirement. Eventually it was just rote, we would do left over right as a habit and we no longer were punished.
Realization hit us during 2nd phase when on the rifle range the DI's instructed us that if in the sitting position you do not have your left foot over your right, you will fall over backwards when you shoot.
Left over right, I will never forget that lesson and continue to this day, not because I project that I will need to fire a rifle in the sitting position anytime soon, but because it became the norm/habit/rote.
We would like to think that regulations are made simply to annoy us. However, in most cases regulations are made for reasons which may be beyond our immediate comprehension and most likely have far reaching impact.
I took the advice of one of my first SSgt's who stated, "Hicks, take the time to know the SOP and all regulations you are privy to. You will gain insight and understanding as to how the organization is run and will save your ass in the long haul!"
Compliance to regulations is not a choice but a requirement. Those regulations no matter how trivial exist for a reason, which we may not see. If we disagree with a regulations and can provide supporting well thought out reasoning with impact results, then perhaps we can make a change through chain of command. But until that time, your troops deserve your adherence to regulations as you never know which little trivial thing will save their/your life.
In boot camp one of the first things emphasized by my DI's was left over right. Everything we did from day one was left over right. We had to put our left sock on before our right sock. We had to put our left leg in our pants before our right. We had to put our left arm in the shirt before the right. Left boots before right. Boot/shoe laces were left over right. You get the picture it was left over right from day one. And if we were observed not practicing left over right not only did we hit the pit/mini-grinder but my bunk-mate, my fire team, my squad, my platoon would hit the pit/min-grinder with me. There was a great emphasis on this, as well as many other little intangibles. To make this clear there was painful retribution exacted if there were offenses to the left over right rule.
This went on for weeks, with recruits not really understanding the significance to the requirement. Eventually it was just rote, we would do left over right as a habit and we no longer were punished.
Realization hit us during 2nd phase when on the rifle range the DI's instructed us that if in the sitting position you do not have your left foot over your right, you will fall over backwards when you shoot.
Left over right, I will never forget that lesson and continue to this day, not because I project that I will need to fire a rifle in the sitting position anytime soon, but because it became the norm/habit/rote.
We would like to think that regulations are made simply to annoy us. However, in most cases regulations are made for reasons which may be beyond our immediate comprehension and most likely have far reaching impact.
I took the advice of one of my first SSgt's who stated, "Hicks, take the time to know the SOP and all regulations you are privy to. You will gain insight and understanding as to how the organization is run and will save your ass in the long haul!"
Compliance to regulations is not a choice but a requirement. Those regulations no matter how trivial exist for a reason, which we may not see. If we disagree with a regulations and can provide supporting well thought out reasoning with impact results, then perhaps we can make a change through chain of command. But until that time, your troops deserve your adherence to regulations as you never know which little trivial thing will save their/your life.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
Absolutely, the best, most comprehensive, and sound response I've had yet. Bravo! It's been over three months since I posted this thread, and guess what? My buttons are still buttoned. It has been excellent to see the myriad of responses so far, but again you've said it all the best. Semper Fi.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Cpl (Join to see) Your story brought flashbacks of boot camp in San Diego. And to this day I still do left over right and pay attention to my gig line. Oh and no hands in the pockets.
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When I was a Private, i saw people get their cargo pockets ripped off and handed to them because they were unbuttoned or buttons ripped/cut off because they weren't fastened. Do I think it is a sign of a lack of discipline? Yes. The AR 670-1 (old) and DA PAM 670-1 both state that they are to be buttoned. I won't re-post, but if you read the response I gave to MAJ Ballinger, we don't get to pick and choose what standards we enforce and disregard because of our personal feelings on them. As Leaders, we enforce the standard no matter what it is. As soon as we slack on one, we have made a double standard. The lower enlisted of this generation are very smart (not always in a good way) and will see this and find ways to exploit it. I hear a lot of Leaders complain about shining boots and pressing uniforms and how we don't do it anymore and can't enforce discipline because of it. This is just one of those things we can use in place of that. Do your job as a Leader, enforce the standard, and you will reap the benefits in discipline from you Soldiers and they, in turn will be better Leaders because of it.
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SGT (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) you write, “As Leaders, we enforce the standard no matter what it is.” While I generally agree in principle, in practice, not necessarily.
By that I mean, imagine if every law enforcement officer enforced the standard, no matter what it is.
Cop: ‘do you know why I pulled you over?’
Man: ‘probably because I crossed a double yellow line. It was just a second, a big wind gust got a hold of my front end. I quickly corrected.’
Cop: ‘ok cool, but the standard is no crossing the double yellow, so here’s your ticket. Excellent recovery though, wind gusts can be nasty this time of year. Stay safe’.
Cop: ‘do you know why I pulled you over?’
Man: ‘probably because I’m doing 85 in a 65, but my wife is in labor!’
Cop: ‘ok cool, but the standard is no speeding, so here’s your ticket. Slow it down, and get there safely’.
A few random, minor traffic violations aren’t an indication of a slipping of driving standards. Same with unbuttoned back pockets.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for enforcing standards. But there has to be a level of discretion. The best leaders are the best at using common sense to make those discretion calls.
Just some thoughts. Best of luck.
By that I mean, imagine if every law enforcement officer enforced the standard, no matter what it is.
Cop: ‘do you know why I pulled you over?’
Man: ‘probably because I crossed a double yellow line. It was just a second, a big wind gust got a hold of my front end. I quickly corrected.’
Cop: ‘ok cool, but the standard is no crossing the double yellow, so here’s your ticket. Excellent recovery though, wind gusts can be nasty this time of year. Stay safe’.
Cop: ‘do you know why I pulled you over?’
Man: ‘probably because I’m doing 85 in a 65, but my wife is in labor!’
Cop: ‘ok cool, but the standard is no speeding, so here’s your ticket. Slow it down, and get there safely’.
A few random, minor traffic violations aren’t an indication of a slipping of driving standards. Same with unbuttoned back pockets.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for enforcing standards. But there has to be a level of discretion. The best leaders are the best at using common sense to make those discretion calls.
Just some thoughts. Best of luck.
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Yes, that is totally what is wrong with our Army today. Once we fix this epidemic of unbutton back pockets we will once again be the world respected fighting force that we use to be.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
standards are standards, and regulations are the regulations - we, as NCO's ARE the standard - we are the line that must be in the sand, sure, the world will not end if we have unbuttoned pockets, but we would be hypocrites if we dare correct another soldiers deficiencies - we do not get to choose what we want regarding this - we enforce them and we are them. You may not want to hear it, but there it is - Doing the hard right over the easy wrong is what we are paid to do.
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SPC (Join to see)
Actually we are paid to sit and look somewhat good and play the political game of war or no war. You know the hurry up and wait game. SSG Robert Perrotto
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