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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
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Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 167
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This pisses me off! As a CSM this really pisses me off. That E5 was extremely wrong; disrespect, insubordinate, not leading the way (by not cleaning his weapon).
You should have put paper to pen and given him a counseling statement when he refused to follow your directions, covering everything. You were right to have the PL there with you. I probably would have briefed the LT prior to the conversation with that E5, and ask him if the E5 was argumentative, or insubordinate the LT could have given him a direct order. If he refused at that point because he is an AGR, the LT could push for an Article 15. I would have also skipped the CSM and taken the issue to the 1SG first.
Last but not least, the comments from the CSM, especially in front of the E5 were wrong. The CSM should have backed you up and fried that E5. If he holds his AGR's at a higher standard than TPU's (which is wrong), he really should have fried that E5. You are not supported by your CSM! I would look for a new home, since this leadership is garbage.
You should have put paper to pen and given him a counseling statement when he refused to follow your directions, covering everything. You were right to have the PL there with you. I probably would have briefed the LT prior to the conversation with that E5, and ask him if the E5 was argumentative, or insubordinate the LT could have given him a direct order. If he refused at that point because he is an AGR, the LT could push for an Article 15. I would have also skipped the CSM and taken the issue to the 1SG first.
Last but not least, the comments from the CSM, especially in front of the E5 were wrong. The CSM should have backed you up and fried that E5. If he holds his AGR's at a higher standard than TPU's (which is wrong), he really should have fried that E5. You are not supported by your CSM! I would look for a new home, since this leadership is garbage.
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SFC Joseph Behmke
SSG Gregg Mourizen - This is why we have a system. You just need to use it without being coerced by their section leader or friend.
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SSG David Milholen
Of all the time I served Active and NG I have had my share of garbage leadership and wished I could of just moved on to another home but one side of me tells me to stay and try to make a difference for both my seniors and lower enlisted. The one thing about that bothers me is there is no place or time for that in combat zones.
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SSgt Robert Klahn
I'm former Air Force, 50+ years ago, so not familiar with the recent situation, however ...
You pretty much covered what I would have said, with more detail that I would have used cause I am so long out of it I don't even know the system now.
Buy yeah, you got it!
You pretty much covered what I would have said, with more detail that I would have used cause I am so long out of it I don't even know the system now.
Buy yeah, you got it!
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You weren't wrong exactly, you were just using the wrong tool in your toolbox. Pushups are for painful lessons for Joe's, once you are an NCO your lessons have to involve a different type of pain. Professional pain like counseling, corrective action, additional duties, etc are what you need to use with NCOs. Grab the ear of a senior NCO you respect and ask them what they would have done in that situation and add that tool to your toolbox
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SP5 Timothy Cooper
Okay in that case like SSgt Murphy said it is time for pen to paper. An a good hart to hart with the 1 SGT .
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SFC William Benner
Being an NCO, he already knew what he was did wrong. Sounds like insubordination to me. Basic training tactics weren't right but I would have had pen and paper handy right away and gave him some serious extra training. If his subordinates saw this, it was the worst example he could set that also could affect his leadership ability going forward. His subordinates saw him do that, the they too would try it if they didn't know it was handled in a way they wouldn't want to happen to them. Paper must be involved for documentation purposes in caser it was needed later.
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SFC Howard Holmes
Writing it up, and ensuring that the issue of insubordination, actions unbecoming of an NCO, etc. properly reflect in his next NCOER.
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SSG David Milholen
This is a nail on the head statement using the right tools for the right job.We are still human and emotions can cloud whats in the toolbox for sure..
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You shouldn’t have involved the Sgt Maj so early on.
You did right having the OIC there but you should have moved forward with putting pen to paper and make it official. You don’t bring the kid to the Sgt Maj in the heat of the moment. You don’t take it to them until it’s bullet proofed and vetted
You did right having the OIC there but you should have moved forward with putting pen to paper and make it official. You don’t bring the kid to the Sgt Maj in the heat of the moment. You don’t take it to them until it’s bullet proofed and vetted
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
SSG (Join to see) If you have proof that an E5 is using a personal relationship with an E8 to manipulate outcomes and cover his poor behavior that would be concerning for leadership. If you see something document it and report it
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SPC (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - Jason, it sounds as if the E-5 and his "personal relationships" with higher ups is fraught with codependency issues. These dysfunctions should be taken up with a superior who can take a look at this entire system.
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SPC Daniel Brown
Sounds like a Promotion and the sent to another unit was to appease the E5 now E6 and cover his behavior in you unit.
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Sgt Michael Clifford
I am sure I would have been hot given that situation but I think that the advice of SSgt Murphy is right on. Given this E-5's behavior it was clear he might not react well to your counseling so it would have been better to write him up and make it official before moving up the chain ofm command. What was the Lt's reaction to this incident?
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The standard should be immediate intelligent obedience. Based on your narrative the E-5 (Specialist?) doesn't grasp that, and has no intention of grasping that. I'm not familiar with Army reserve, but in the Marine Corps, for such flagrant behavior, I'd have given him a meritorious demotion to E-3 and some brig time.
P.S. There may be some problem that has cued up his bad behavior. Many care. I don't. He could have handled such a problem any number of better ways. He clearly doesn't have the maturity one expects of an E-5 NCO or Specialist. If he can't follow, he doesn't deserve to lead.
P.S. There may be some problem that has cued up his bad behavior. Many care. I don't. He could have handled such a problem any number of better ways. He clearly doesn't have the maturity one expects of an E-5 NCO or Specialist. If he can't follow, he doesn't deserve to lead.
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Maj John Bell
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - In the Marines it is impolite to refer to a Marine by their paygrade. I was under the impression that the Army had Specialists who were not considered NCO's, hence the question mark behind "Specialist" and that one does not refer to specialists by the NCO equivalent rank.
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TSgt Carl Johnson
Maj John Bell The Army dropped all the Specialist ranks, except Specialist 4, in the mid-late 1980s.
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SP5 Timothy Cooper
If he was a drop SH_t too start than is person will be a drop SH-t it the end of they time in.
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It's easy to quarterback this after reading this but.....you did not do anything wrong in my opinion except that you involved CSM early on. Having said that, there is no excuse for that E5's behavior. Completely unacceptable. That CSM made a mistake by siding with and excusing their behavior. Your not old school, you were doing the right thing. Unfortunately now, he thinks he is even more untouchable since he is boys with the CSM. He needs to be "humbled".
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You need to use the tools the Army gives us to destroy him and get him fired from his means of employment. THAT gets attention, push ups doesn't.
AGR's will manipulate their position as the full time staff and basically inconvenience you at every turn. In the end it's the TPU unit commander that suffers.
You as a SSG TPU are of no consequence to that E5 AGR. Yes, OK, that's nice, you can put him in the front leaning rest, but you aren't managing his work week, you aren't docking any pay, and you probably aren't his rater (I presume).
This is probably going to blow back on you until a unit commander has had enough of him AND has the skills and stamina to endure the uphill battle to discipline an AGR.
This is probably best handled through the unit 1SG and Commander. The CO's signature on a counseling statement and on an NCOER as the Sr Rater (I presume) will end him at probably his next look for another AGR tour.
I probably would thrash him on PRESENCE on his NCOER, but you need the counseling statement to stick on his NCOER. Then you need to do the NCOER knowing it's going to get dragged through the system very slowly because he'll probably appeal it, not sign it and just use up all this cards in the game.
So whatever happens the actions against him need to stick, and that's going to take a CO that's willing to hold to his guns, and not buckle to BN or BDE not wanting to deal with losing an AGR.
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What it takes is the CO to hold to his guns, because that's where the BUCK can be kicked back UP if the CO stops kicking the can down the road, but all the ducks need to be set up to help the Company Level CO.
AGR's will manipulate their position as the full time staff and basically inconvenience you at every turn. In the end it's the TPU unit commander that suffers.
You as a SSG TPU are of no consequence to that E5 AGR. Yes, OK, that's nice, you can put him in the front leaning rest, but you aren't managing his work week, you aren't docking any pay, and you probably aren't his rater (I presume).
This is probably going to blow back on you until a unit commander has had enough of him AND has the skills and stamina to endure the uphill battle to discipline an AGR.
This is probably best handled through the unit 1SG and Commander. The CO's signature on a counseling statement and on an NCOER as the Sr Rater (I presume) will end him at probably his next look for another AGR tour.
I probably would thrash him on PRESENCE on his NCOER, but you need the counseling statement to stick on his NCOER. Then you need to do the NCOER knowing it's going to get dragged through the system very slowly because he'll probably appeal it, not sign it and just use up all this cards in the game.
So whatever happens the actions against him need to stick, and that's going to take a CO that's willing to hold to his guns, and not buckle to BN or BDE not wanting to deal with losing an AGR.
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What it takes is the CO to hold to his guns, because that's where the BUCK can be kicked back UP if the CO stops kicking the can down the road, but all the ducks need to be set up to help the Company Level CO.
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SSG (Join to see) this is a case of "power of the pen" which is in your favor. documentation on NCOER should reflect it
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SSG (Join to see)
I wish I could do that but I'm not in his rating chain. His e8 MSG buddy is his rater.
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Other than including the CSM so quickly, I feel you did nothing wrong. That pay grade....because I refuse to call anyone that acted like they did an NCO.....should have been smoked from one side of the range to the other...but I digress.
Even though they are AGR, are you the Rater for this Pay Grade of a body? If so, then put all of this to paper. Develop a Counseling under Event Oriented. Obviously describe everything that happened. Then.....in the Plan of Action....instruct the Pay Grade to write a 500 word essay on Disrespect to an NCO, what Article of UCMJ that violates, what the repercussions could be, and how the disrespectful actions negatively affect unit cohesion. The instructions for the essay are to be: In Pen (not typed) and Print (not cursive). Then, if they do not follow that plan of action, have them write a 1000 word essay covering Failure to Follow a Lawful Order from an NCO. Same parameters. Of course, do a counseling for this new essay. Boom. You have paperwork trail to back up a recommendation for an Article 15.
The fact that Leadership, other than the LT, chose not to back you up.....that shit is just garbage.
Even though they are AGR, are you the Rater for this Pay Grade of a body? If so, then put all of this to paper. Develop a Counseling under Event Oriented. Obviously describe everything that happened. Then.....in the Plan of Action....instruct the Pay Grade to write a 500 word essay on Disrespect to an NCO, what Article of UCMJ that violates, what the repercussions could be, and how the disrespectful actions negatively affect unit cohesion. The instructions for the essay are to be: In Pen (not typed) and Print (not cursive). Then, if they do not follow that plan of action, have them write a 1000 word essay covering Failure to Follow a Lawful Order from an NCO. Same parameters. Of course, do a counseling for this new essay. Boom. You have paperwork trail to back up a recommendation for an Article 15.
The fact that Leadership, other than the LT, chose not to back you up.....that shit is just garbage.
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SSG (Join to see)
I like this plan. No, I'm not his rater. His rater will still give him a good NCOER. The other AGR who works with him are the ones who informed me of his attitude and disrespect. Then I experienced it when I took him aside. I should have done the counseling route. I'm sure I'll have other opportunities if I stick around in this unit much longer, however I don't plan to. It's time to seek a transfer for career progression. Thank you for your comment, SFC.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - Yea....definitely need to pop smoke and assault in a different direction.
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You did right- your CSM to me, was way out of line. All his NCOs should be important to him. Wpn maint should be important to him and damn common courtesies between all his NCOs should be important to him!
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A couple of things. Did you or anyone else bring this NCO's actions to the Attention of the Range OIC? Why did a SFC let an E-5 talk to him like that without reading him the riot act right there? Pisses me off that the CSM didn't support you.
How come the Officers on the range were putting up with this kind of Crap. I would have had him in the wood line outlining his individual moral, ethical and professional failings and what I wanted done about it. He wants to go to his boss, I'm more than happy to have a open door with his bosses boss.
How come the Officers on the range were putting up with this kind of Crap. I would have had him in the wood line outlining his individual moral, ethical and professional failings and what I wanted done about it. He wants to go to his boss, I'm more than happy to have a open door with his bosses boss.
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SSG (Join to see)
Those questions are easy to answer if you are familiar with a unit such as mine. I am in a hospital unit and it is very rank heavy, consisting of mostly direct commission Officers. Nothing against them, but they know way more about medical than military, hence why they didn't correct his disrespect on the spot. The SFC really is a great NCO, however they were the NCOIC of range and supply (overworked and overloaded in my opinion) and I didn't question them saving, what I thought would be easy, work for myself.
My plan was to slowly and calmly outline those exact point while he was just hanging out in the front lean and rest giving me his attention.
My plan was to slowly and calmly outline those exact point while he was just hanging out in the front lean and rest giving me his attention.
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