Posted on Aug 6, 2020
1LT All Source Intelligence
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I have a friend who commissioned in 2009, contracted with ROTC in 2006. The story goes that when he first commissioned, he noticed his PEBD was his contracting date rather than commissioning date. The DFAS folks at the time told him that was accurate. Now, 10 years later, someone at HRC picked up on the "error" and he owes over $30,000 back pay. I don't know if it's relevant, but he has been USAR this whole time and is now a MAJ. The result of his pay being withheld while still being taxed as if he were getting paid fully is that he now ends up paying money each month to go to drill.

To me, it doesn't sound like there is a whole lot he can do about it, but I wanted to do my due diligence to see if anyone in the community has experienced something similar or knows something that might help him out. That's a pretty massive debt.
Edited 5 y ago
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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The contracting date is the PEBD only when the Soldier participated in Simultaneous Membership Program.

Unfortunately, this error is extremely common and not usually discovered till retirement. Fortunately, it’s common enough that there is a simple fix to it. Have the Soldier contact DFAS in order to submit the request to waive the debt. It’s a fairly straight forward process that DFAS approves all the time. However, the law is that they cannot do it automatically, the Soldier must make the request.
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1LT All Source Intelligence
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MAJ Ken Landgren - Thank you for the advice, sir! Maybe all hope is not lost!
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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MAJ Ken Landgren that's good information. I've only seen this happen a handful of times, but not enough to know which waivers get approved and which don't
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LTC Jason Mackay
LTC Jason Mackay
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SFC (Join to see) I thought for a long period PEBD=BASD=Commissioning Date the Officer was a Gold Bar Recruiter
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CDR Terry Boles
CDR Terry Boles
5 y
I had a new 1st Lt that had a similar problem. He was ROTC then went to college for physical therapy. Shortly after reporting to Davis-Monthan he was hit up by finance requiring a payback of over payments supposedly as enlisted during his ROTC days. His advice by finance was to submit a hardship waiver and it was approved. I can not remember the ROTC back story but waivers do get approved. Highly recommend this avenue for the major.
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COL Colonel
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That seems to be an unusually large debt for a PEBD difference. I don’t know if ROTC contract date was ever used for PEBD, though I know it was (and may still be) used for “DIEMS” (Date Initially Entered Military Service) for non-prior service folks for purposes of which retirement system/calculation applies.
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1LT All Source Intelligence
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Thank you, sir. I was surprised about the amount at first too, but it does add up quickly! I had a two year difference (in the other direction, fortunately), and my back pay was about 1/3 of his debt within just two years after commissioning!
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LTC John Griscom
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He is not the one who entered the date in his records. Some finance cleck had to have entered it in the records. It would be interesting to see if the same thing happened to people who entered at the same time and location.
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Was there ever a time when PEBD was determined upon contracting into ROTC?
CPT Lawrence Cichelli
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Nope. ROTC time does NOT count, PEBD starts when you get commissioned. ROTC Cadets are not subject to UCMJ and other legal matters, contracted or not. If he collected pay based on years of service because of the wrong PEBD, that could explain why he owes this money. He also has only himself to blame by not investigating this. You are responsible for your own career.
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1LT All Source Intelligence
1LT (Join to see)
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I agree, but I can also empathize with asking an "expert" when something doesn't seem right and taking their word for it, especially as he was a brand new 2LT.
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LTC John Griscom
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Edited 5 y ago
Didn't apply when I was commissioned in 1964 and I contracted in 1962.
He needs to get such good advice from the JAG and start a dialog with DFAS. If they are taking back money he paid taxes on, there needs to be some review and adjustments.
Just my opinion, but he should not be paying for someone else's screwup.
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1LT All Source Intelligence
1LT (Join to see)
5 y
Thank you for that context! That is actually around the timeframe I was thinking it might have counted based on some of the literature I found looking into this. It seems like it was just someone with flawed knowledge that set him up for failure.
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CPT Carolyn Andrews
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Wow
That's terrible. Who assigned him to the contacting date vs commission date should be the one countable and not him.
I did early entry; after a year my early entry date became my pay date, PEBD.
I would make the person who told me that was right, to pay the amount.
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1LT All Source Intelligence
1LT (Join to see)
5 y
I agree it doesn't seem like something he should be held accountable for; it wasn't like he was scamming the system in bad faith. If someone had to pay to recoup the cost, I would probably agree with you; but I'm just hoping he can get his waiver approved as suggested by the good SFC above!
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CPT Staff Officer
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Educate me here. Why does it matter what the PBED date is relative to Commissioning Date? PBED is entry date in the Army pay system regardless of how much one get's paid, correct? It's just that date at which they are able to start incurring payments from. I "enlisted" and my PBED date is my enlistment date. From that period until my commissioning date I was paid as enlisted. Then 4 years later I commissioned. So PBED and Commission Date do not match.

Was the MAJ of this topic paid as an LT in the period between his contract date of 2006 and his commission date of 2009? Why is the basis of owing $30K not having matching dates? Was that number reached by pulling pay history deposited into the SM's account and comparing it against this Cadet grade at the time?

I generally think this shouldn't impact me, and I have nothing to worry about, but technically my PBED date is 4 years prior to my commission date, and well, the Army is the Army, and I don't put anything past it.

*****
I spent 2+ years going over monthly financial pay numbers for my soldiers every month, and put my name on it vouching for it. The report was complete gibberish. I'm only comparing it against my 20 years in finance and MBA/CFA. It was on par with a General Ledger and thousands of numbers. What am I supposed to do with that mess?

Could I have potentially caught something to protect my ROTC cadets from this future nonsense? Even myself, and fellow officers?
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CPT Staff Officer
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1LT (Join to see) - I was a SGT when I direct commissioned. POOF, no OCS or ROTC. E5 one day, discharged, then then commission order the next day. So my PEBD date is prior to commissioning by 4 years.

In my personal situation I suspect my Retirement Points Report will SPELL IT OUT each year my rank and points.

I had 2 ROTC cadets in my last unit, both of them were currently with the unit for a number of years as SPC's and then got ROTC contracts and decided to continuing drilling with the unit as they went to college. I can foresee them having problems.
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1LT All Source Intelligence
1LT (Join to see)
5 y
Ah yes, the enlisted -> DC route. Another unicorn! You should be fine.

Those Cadets should be fine if they're doing SMP. The only issue they might have is the issue I had -- if they go Active Duty from ARNG they might have a messed up PEBD depending on their HR person. My PEBD ended up being wrong because there was no communication between the National Guard and the Active Component. It is as though I was never enlisted for pay purposes, although I maintained the same DOD ID number and iPerms, etc. Fortunately, unlike the guy in my post, this would result in backpay for them rather than debt.
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LTC John Griscom
LTC John Griscom
5 y
Commissioning date only applies if there is no prior service.
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CPT Lawrence Cichelli
CPT Lawrence Cichelli
5 y
PEBD is from when you enlisted. ROTC tome doesn't count unless you're still in an enlisted status. If you do ROTC then get commissioned, the ROTC time doesn't count. If you enlist, then do ROTC, that is different because you signed a contract to enlist first that makes the difference. Yes I know Cadets get paid as an E-5. If you did ROTC and did not enlist, you better have this looked at and corrected or you could find yourself with a similar debt.
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