Posted on Aug 28, 2020
What are y'alls opinions on escalation of force for Police Departments?
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Im writing a paper for a class on the Jacob Blake shooting on what could have been done differently. After reviewing relevant fact on the matter, do you believe the escalation of force used in the shooting was justified or not and why?
Can we link these to the perceived "systemic racism" and the George Floyd/Breonna Taylor cases?
Please provide justified responses and examples of what could or could not have been done differently.
Can we link these to the perceived "systemic racism" and the George Floyd/Breonna Taylor cases?
Please provide justified responses and examples of what could or could not have been done differently.
Racism
Policy
Police
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 61
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SSG (Join to see) I posted somewhere else, why shoot him in the back but that was before I knew some of the other facts that are coming out. Two tasers failed to stop him, the cops knew he had a knife, they may have known about his violent past and when he started reaching into the car, that was the end of it. Ill support officers when they are right but not when they are wrong. I'm thinking they were not wrong here. I'd say 99% percent of cops dont go to work everyday hoping to shoot someone but there are some officers that do have problems. I am a retired officer and I carry everyday and thats the last thing I want to do is shoot someone.
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MSgt Allen Chandler
SFC Robert Walton - You said "floyd was innocent. He was not innocent this was not his first rodeo. He was on two types of drugs, passing illegal $20. bills, being combative, not following police instruction, and had more drugs on him" So why didn't the policeman just take out his gun and shoot him? He was always see a bad person. The police officer should've just shot him and been done with it. That's with the police do get rid of bad guys. NO! That's not what police to. Police arrest people who they think of committed a crime And bring them to the justice system. I don't care if this guy had shot 70 people just three seconds before hand. The police in this case had him under control And then Through Choice or accident Killed him. I don't care if the guys name was Hitler, Are the devil himself. The police have a responsibility. The police did not know he was on drugs, The Reasonably believe that he was committing a crime (Passing bad bills) But no matter whatThey did not have a right to kill him. At the time of his death there was no police officer or civilian in danger. If you want to talk mitigating circumstances About what the police did or didn't do Then that should be in a Court of law Not on the streets. There are 800,000 policeman in the United States If even one of them is bad I hope you agree that that one should be taken off the police force.
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SFC Robert Walton
MSgt Allen Chandler - You really don't get it do you? They DID NOT kill him he killed himself with a over dose of drugs and the whole thing is being used to tear this country apart wake up he over dosed the officer that was holding him down was wrong, But was not trying to kill him and did not do the damage you project here. They also DID know he was on drugs seeing how they found little bags of white powder that he dropped on the side walk after he was set their in that spot cuffed by police. Quit listening to the bad media and condemning The OFFICER'S for trying to control the situation. Believe what you want and i will believe what i want FLOYD is being used as a Martyr to induce division and hatred In the USA plain and simple. If you can't wrap your head around it far be it from me to get you to see the real problems. Thanks for your Service and have a nice life. BYE NOW
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SFC Robert Walton
WOW one thing is good anyway i got more information on My Great Uncle's Killing, so some of what i posted is not accurate, Go figure i got the bad side of the News on this one. I was going to edit it but let me just say that the Perp additionally killed his brother in law shot another woman and later killed himself in Jail.
The Moral to the story is if you do not react to a situation in a manner which saves may save your life then your just a memorial at Police station. You never know what people are going to do or how they are going to react. Being nice to someone who you have to face down during a domestic abuse call or any other violent call Could end in it being your 10-7 for ever. JMTC
The Moral to the story is if you do not react to a situation in a manner which saves may save your life then your just a memorial at Police station. You never know what people are going to do or how they are going to react. Being nice to someone who you have to face down during a domestic abuse call or any other violent call Could end in it being your 10-7 for ever. JMTC
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Fun fact: on average there are 900,000,000 police interactions with the public every year. Last year there were 1004 people killed by the police. That's 0.00011%. (ie one ten thousandth of one percent). Study by MSU and U of Maryland reviewing over 700 police shooting databases from all over the country found that in 95% of all police killings, the person killed was actively attacking another person at the time. Of the remaining 5%, 90% of them were armed. Bottom line: unless you are armed or attacking another person, you have a 0.0000056% chance of being killed while interacting with the police (that's 5 one millionths of one percent). If you don't resist arrest or attack another person you have a 99.9999944% chance of NOT being killed by the police.
you are more likely to fall out of bed and break your neck or be killed by a falling coconut than you are to be shot by a cop....
edit: rechecked my math and I was off by a factor of 10. you actually have a 99.99999944% chance of not getting shot if you don't fight or resist.
you are more likely to fall out of bed and break your neck or be killed by a falling coconut than you are to be shot by a cop....
edit: rechecked my math and I was off by a factor of 10. you actually have a 99.99999944% chance of not getting shot if you don't fight or resist.
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MSgt Allen Chandler
I liked your comment I didn’t check but I believe your numbers are pretty accurate. If it’s true the 1004 people were shot last year by police. And there should’ve been 1004 complete an open investigations. The numbers you quoted show that the vast majority of police officers don’t shoot anybody and the vast majority of police officers are doing a good job. I personally believe the vast majority of those 1000 shootings were justified and the police were doing what was necessary. But even if it was 1% improper action. That’s 10 people that shouldn’t have died in 10 police officers that should be held accountable. The police departments them selves need to show that they’re being fair and judging their fellow officers by the same standard They judge us.
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LTC (Join to see)
PO3 Dale S. - Having been an MP for the last 15 years, I can tell you that every time you draw your weapon, whether you fire it or not, there is an insane amount of paperwork that comes along with the report. I guarantee that 99 [login to see] 99% of the cops out there aren't pulling their guns and shooting people for no good reason. Cops hate paperwork.
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MSgt Allen Chandler
PO3 Dale S. - It would not surprise me If the independent investigation shows that the best majority Of those cases were justified. Not just justified, Which is a point where the police officer should've gotten a metal. It's a Tough job, And I salute those who were willing to take it on. That being said If even one of those Thousand cases was not justified And the police officer made a mistake. Did someone has to review it And decide if that mistake rises to the level of criminal action. And even if it does not rise to the level of criminal action We have to askShould this person be on the police force. I will add that It's not just shootings. Police options make a lot of tough decisions every day. In hindsightIt's reasonable relieve that somebody them were mistakes. A Fair and just system Look at each of those mistakes And your side not just Was it a crime, But was it a mistake That makes this person unqualified to be a police officer. This is not a simple question. It's a tough question. It's a hard question. But I think we all want it to be asked.
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"Jacob Blake shooting on what could have been done differently "
Andrew Dickhoff - good luck with your paper. During my time in the Coast Guard and as an armed Customs and Border Protection Officer on the border I've been through a lot of Judgmental Shooting Courses, situational awareness, and the "Use of Force Continuum". Unless there is more video out there that shows a different point of view the existing video doesn't give me enough information to make a good decision.
I'm good at making guesses; and have always been known to interject my opinion whether asked for or not! As you probably know that a "Use of Force Continuum Chart" details somewhat an officer's response to force by a person they are engaged with can be used. In a nut shell if I, as an officer, tells you to stop and you do, that was an appropriate level of force. If you indicate you have a knife and it is visible in your hand I have two immediate courses of action. First I should have my duty gun in hand, pointed at you; and second I should be telling you to drop the weapon or I will shoot. Odds are if you, with your knife are within 21’ (in some cases 30') of me unless I take some evasive action I'm probably going to get cut. If you don't drop the knife and start to approach me with it in hand the use of deadly force is legitimate. Courts generally allow an officer to use one level of force higher than what the "suspect" is using.
I've watched several videos of the incident and without reading witness and police statements I don't see that the use of deadly force was justified. I'll qualify that with "was the knife in Blake's hand" - what did the officer who shot Blake see as Blake was entering the front of the car? A search of the car did not turn up a gun as some early reports indicated.
One thing that many people do that is "flawed" in my mind is grouping all the officer involved shootings into one group of Cop on Black Shootings as being institutional racism; each case needs to be looked at individually. Is racism to be considered as a problem? To say no would be turning a blind eye on the reality of that.
To answer your question in my opinion there is not enough evidence to decide if an appropriate level of force was used. The officer following Blake had his gun pointed at Blake for a reason; Blake had been tased twice; so it's your opinion that will matter in your paper.
Andrew Dickhoff - good luck with your paper. During my time in the Coast Guard and as an armed Customs and Border Protection Officer on the border I've been through a lot of Judgmental Shooting Courses, situational awareness, and the "Use of Force Continuum". Unless there is more video out there that shows a different point of view the existing video doesn't give me enough information to make a good decision.
I'm good at making guesses; and have always been known to interject my opinion whether asked for or not! As you probably know that a "Use of Force Continuum Chart" details somewhat an officer's response to force by a person they are engaged with can be used. In a nut shell if I, as an officer, tells you to stop and you do, that was an appropriate level of force. If you indicate you have a knife and it is visible in your hand I have two immediate courses of action. First I should have my duty gun in hand, pointed at you; and second I should be telling you to drop the weapon or I will shoot. Odds are if you, with your knife are within 21’ (in some cases 30') of me unless I take some evasive action I'm probably going to get cut. If you don't drop the knife and start to approach me with it in hand the use of deadly force is legitimate. Courts generally allow an officer to use one level of force higher than what the "suspect" is using.
I've watched several videos of the incident and without reading witness and police statements I don't see that the use of deadly force was justified. I'll qualify that with "was the knife in Blake's hand" - what did the officer who shot Blake see as Blake was entering the front of the car? A search of the car did not turn up a gun as some early reports indicated.
One thing that many people do that is "flawed" in my mind is grouping all the officer involved shootings into one group of Cop on Black Shootings as being institutional racism; each case needs to be looked at individually. Is racism to be considered as a problem? To say no would be turning a blind eye on the reality of that.
To answer your question in my opinion there is not enough evidence to decide if an appropriate level of force was used. The officer following Blake had his gun pointed at Blake for a reason; Blake had been tased twice; so it's your opinion that will matter in your paper.
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CWO4 Tim Hecht
John - yes there is a difference between the two jobs but the basics of law enforcement apply to both jobs. The Use of Force Continuum applies to both jobs; the biggest difference between the two jobs is we don't patrol and the people come to us.
I can (and do) have an opinion based on what I saw on several different videos; but here's part of my last paragraph: "To answer your question in my opinion there is not enough evidence to decide if an appropriate level of force was used. The officer following Blake had his gun pointed at Blake for a reason; Blake had been tased twice; so it's your opinion that will matter in your paper."
I can (and do) have an opinion based on what I saw on several different videos; but here's part of my last paragraph: "To answer your question in my opinion there is not enough evidence to decide if an appropriate level of force was used. The officer following Blake had his gun pointed at Blake for a reason; Blake had been tased twice; so it's your opinion that will matter in your paper."
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MSgt Allen Chandler
1 SGT Cragt, You said The autopsyShowed he was on drugs. So what? He died! One of the reasons he died Was because a policeman put his knee on his on his neck. This action is discouraged if not I don't want in every decision apartment in the US. I don't have all the facts So I'm not saying the policeman was wrong. I will say two things 1) Whether he was on drugs, A mass murderer, Or a man from Mars Doesn't matter. 2) The actions of the police officer Should be reviewed And affair impartial manner By a fair in in partial Commission. So far that hasn't been done.
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CWO4 Tim Hecht
Al Chandler - the media had already turned this case into a major shit show; sadly I don't think that there is a single place in the US where the police officer would get a fair and impartial jury of his peers.
Having knowledge of a person's prior criminal record is a definite advantage for arresting officers; any violent tendencies, known to carry a straight razor, hates the police - all good things that a police officer needs to know when arresting someone.
I had to take someone into custody one morning at the border; our operating procedures required us to contact the Border Patrol OPCEN to confirm the warrant. By luck of the draw the Border Patrol Agent I contacted had "extra" knowledge; he said that if he had been drinking he loved to fight "white" cops. Crap here we go. I got two of the biggest fellow officers and asked them to follow my lead. The first thing I did was ask him to pay attention to what I was about to say and do exactly what I asked him to do. So I told him he had an outstanding warrant for his arrest; and that we were required take him into custody. At first he started to tense up; so I told the officers to hurry up and cuff the guy. One of the officers used excessive force cuffing the guy; twisting his arm almost over his head; the person being cuffed let out a little yelp - apparently our new friend had issues with his shoulder. Had I not known of his patterns of behavior when he was drunk there might have been a fight So knowing in advance was a good thing.
Will we ever know exactly what happened even with all the video and witness statements? Probably not.
In my opinion there were enough police officers there to subdue him, cuff him, and take him into custody. Sadly for the most part the other officers stood around and did nothing. Not good; similar to the Rodney King case; where it finally took a total of 8 officers to subdue him and cuff him.
Having knowledge of a person's prior criminal record is a definite advantage for arresting officers; any violent tendencies, known to carry a straight razor, hates the police - all good things that a police officer needs to know when arresting someone.
I had to take someone into custody one morning at the border; our operating procedures required us to contact the Border Patrol OPCEN to confirm the warrant. By luck of the draw the Border Patrol Agent I contacted had "extra" knowledge; he said that if he had been drinking he loved to fight "white" cops. Crap here we go. I got two of the biggest fellow officers and asked them to follow my lead. The first thing I did was ask him to pay attention to what I was about to say and do exactly what I asked him to do. So I told him he had an outstanding warrant for his arrest; and that we were required take him into custody. At first he started to tense up; so I told the officers to hurry up and cuff the guy. One of the officers used excessive force cuffing the guy; twisting his arm almost over his head; the person being cuffed let out a little yelp - apparently our new friend had issues with his shoulder. Had I not known of his patterns of behavior when he was drunk there might have been a fight So knowing in advance was a good thing.
Will we ever know exactly what happened even with all the video and witness statements? Probably not.
In my opinion there were enough police officers there to subdue him, cuff him, and take him into custody. Sadly for the most part the other officers stood around and did nothing. Not good; similar to the Rodney King case; where it finally took a total of 8 officers to subdue him and cuff him.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
Jacob Blake should never have been shot and I believe the people at fault for his shooting are the people that have neutered the non-lethal options. Watching him walk around that car with the weapons drawn I can think of many non-lethal options I would have done and I do not think any of them are allowed in policing today. You always hear complaints about excessive force and now instead of excessive being non-lethal they are having to resort to lethal because grabbing someone's neck from behind or a baton to the knee looks bad. It irritates me to no end all these Monday morning quarterbacks that sit back and go "that was excessive" when they have never had to use physical force against someone. A metal, collapsible baton to the back of Blake's thigh would have stoped him cold and if not, he would have stopped and turned around.
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