Posted on Apr 5, 2015
What are your thoughts on the Combat Action Badge, and it becoming retroactive to 1941?
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The Combat Action Badge was created in 2005 to honor those who'd engaged or been engaged by enemy forces during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but weren't eligible for similar awards available to medics or infantrymen.
It was made retroactive to Sept. 18, 2001, but since shortly after its founding, lawmakers and veterans groups have pushed to send it back much farther — to the outbreak of World War II.
As Maneuver Support Soldier, I know support personal (like Aviation, Engineers, MPs, Truck Drivers, etc. (in addition to our Medics who accompany maneuver forces) are often also directly engaged in close combat along side of our infantry and armor brothers. So, the CAB made sense to me, to accompany the CIB and CMB.
Despite the frenzy that ensued, and discussions of "CAB hunters," I still believe this is an important award, especially for MOSs like MP and Engineers.... who, as an example, during the surge in Iraq were rivaling our combat arms brothers in daily combat casualties.
I was personally shot at more and returned fire more in Somalia, than Iraq. So, this being retroactive also makes sense.
I think this is a good idea, and deserved, however, the logistics of doing this will be overwhelming.
Before you CAB naysayers chime in... Consider COP Keating... Those guys were not 11Bs. They were scouts and armor crewmen. 2 MOHs and many other medals were awarded there. 8 Soldiers were killed and many were wounded. Does not that merit such an award? There are many others like it.
What are your thoughts?
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/04/combat-action-badge-retroactive/25235333/
It was made retroactive to Sept. 18, 2001, but since shortly after its founding, lawmakers and veterans groups have pushed to send it back much farther — to the outbreak of World War II.
As Maneuver Support Soldier, I know support personal (like Aviation, Engineers, MPs, Truck Drivers, etc. (in addition to our Medics who accompany maneuver forces) are often also directly engaged in close combat along side of our infantry and armor brothers. So, the CAB made sense to me, to accompany the CIB and CMB.
Despite the frenzy that ensued, and discussions of "CAB hunters," I still believe this is an important award, especially for MOSs like MP and Engineers.... who, as an example, during the surge in Iraq were rivaling our combat arms brothers in daily combat casualties.
I was personally shot at more and returned fire more in Somalia, than Iraq. So, this being retroactive also makes sense.
I think this is a good idea, and deserved, however, the logistics of doing this will be overwhelming.
Before you CAB naysayers chime in... Consider COP Keating... Those guys were not 11Bs. They were scouts and armor crewmen. 2 MOHs and many other medals were awarded there. 8 Soldiers were killed and many were wounded. Does not that merit such an award? There are many others like it.
What are your thoughts?
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/04/combat-action-badge-retroactive/25235333/
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im an engineer , i can say i have been shot at with just about every kind of small arms there is and more while setting t barrers up on road sides and doing rapid road repairs and culvert denial missions to route clearance missions to setting a bridge across a river while in contact. we referred to ourselves as "bait for the day" but ill say this, we gave way more hurt then we took, i have many awards that say under fire or direct fire on them i have never gotten a cab and dont really care, im just glad to keep coming home and teaching my soldiers how to do the same.
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I was in Somalia for many violent events e.g. Stadium slaughter and Balkan Market
we referred to ourselves as "Prisoners with Guns".
We were constantly harassed by the enemy on a daily basis with enemy fire and mortars.
Those of us on the UN side were given MSM for our combat time.
When we earned the Bronze Star !
we referred to ourselves as "Prisoners with Guns".
We were constantly harassed by the enemy on a daily basis with enemy fire and mortars.
Those of us on the UN side were given MSM for our combat time.
When we earned the Bronze Star !
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COL Charles Williams
I agree... SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT I believe many of our Infantry Brothers have no idea (unless the worked with us in close proximity) what we actually do on the battlefield. I know from Somalia, the 10th Mountain Commanders understood what MPs did and could do, and since 911, most maneuver Commanders get it. Infantry SL... probably not so much. I believe the higher you are in the Army, the better you appreciate all the pieces and parts, and you know the pieces and parts all matter.
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SSG Jeffrey Brady
I agree. After serving with 3rd SFG as a Combat Photographer in Desert Storm I deployed with I MEF to Somalia for my 1st deployment there. Ended up with two tours there seeing more action there than I did in Desert Storm. It's hard not to see why you wouldn't award this medal when you work along side those day after day who earn the CIB and CMB and you are in the middle of the same action.
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The CAB is a bullshit award to make everyone feel good. As an Infantryman I truly hate those who say "when is was I in Iraq I was infanrty". There is much more to being a infantry man than patroling, or exchanging fire with the ememy. How many of those called infantrymen and dig a defence, or set in an anti-armor ambush, set in a patrol base, or enter an clear a trench line. I guess my point is before the GWOT 11B had to learn so many different tasks that are 11B specific. So those of you say I was an 11B during OIF or OEF I throw the bull shit flag. Most of the tasks they where required to do can be found in The Soldiers Manual of COMMON Tasks. It is not my fault you unit did not make sure you could preform those tasks in the above mentioned manual. Besides its your own job to learn that manual front to back. It is for all soldiers regardless of your MOS. So stop calling yourself infantrymen, and call yourself what you are above all else a soldier. As a true infantryman I find very very offensive when I see a window sticker saying Infantilleryman. The CIB is awarded to those of us 11B who got into a direct fire fight, exchanging bullet for bullet with the enemy, not being a Fobbit who had a mortar explode 300 yds away while in your hooch.
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COL Charles Williams
You obviously SFC Trevor Sauders have no idea what others do in combat to support our Infantry brothers. On the modern nonlinear battlefield, it is not just the infantry who patrol and engage the enemy in direct fire engagements. The CAB was long needed for all the rest of us pogues. The issues with awarding the CAB, caused by lack of fidelity in the system by Commanders, also occured/occur with the CIB. I could cite many examples on both sides. I will just tell you during the surge, for 15 months, I attended about a memorial ceremony a week, for an MP(s) who were killed in action.... Only one was killed by a rocket attack at Rustamya... The rest were for direct fire, IEDs, and snipers. That does not even account for the others wounded. It is not just the infantry who fight, especially in places we are today. Thanks just the same for your service and perspective.
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SFC Trevor Sauders
If you read my post carefully, patrolling, getting blown up still does not make you an infantryman. You are still a major who's branch is MP. That does not mean that your sacrifice is more or less than mine but it still does not make you or anybody else and infantryman who's branch is not infantry. As I said all those who have sacrificed and lost deserve something but to make up a patch from nowhere just to give to somebody to make them feel good is not the right answer.
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COL Charles Williams
SFC Trevor Sauders Thanks for your follow up. Hard to read it carefully or seriously when you open with it is Bullshit award. I did spend a few years in the Army and a few years in combat; not infantry combat... but combat just the same.
We can agree to disagree. I was an enlisted an a MP, commissioned Armor, then a MP again for the long haul. I believe the CAB is long over due.
The only thing that makes you infantryman or SF is your MOS or branch; hence the CIB.
That does not mean if you are not Infantry you don't engage in direct fire engagements with the enemy. MPs have specific tasks of conducting a hasty attack, and deliberate attack, which I believe is what you do?
I can even specifically recall more than once the MP ORFs in Baghdad responded to reinforce and assist our Infantry comrades... They seemed pretty pumped with assistance.
Everyone who deploys gets a combat patch... I believe if you engage the enemy in close combat... you deserve the same recognition as the CIB, but not the CIB for which I have the utmost respect and admiration. Hence the CAB.
The issue with the CAB, and the CIB, is a lack of fidelity in the system, created by Commanders who will not say no. The CAB frenzy made this worse... Trust me I can tell you stories about the asinine things I saw folks do in effort to get a CAB when I was Deputy Brigade Commander during the surge in Iraq... But, I also know of similar instances with the CIB.
I suspect, most of our infantry brothers think the CAB is BS, and that is OK. I know that what we do matters, and without us, you would fail.
We can agree to disagree. I was an enlisted an a MP, commissioned Armor, then a MP again for the long haul. I believe the CAB is long over due.
The only thing that makes you infantryman or SF is your MOS or branch; hence the CIB.
That does not mean if you are not Infantry you don't engage in direct fire engagements with the enemy. MPs have specific tasks of conducting a hasty attack, and deliberate attack, which I believe is what you do?
I can even specifically recall more than once the MP ORFs in Baghdad responded to reinforce and assist our Infantry comrades... They seemed pretty pumped with assistance.
Everyone who deploys gets a combat patch... I believe if you engage the enemy in close combat... you deserve the same recognition as the CIB, but not the CIB for which I have the utmost respect and admiration. Hence the CAB.
The issue with the CAB, and the CIB, is a lack of fidelity in the system, created by Commanders who will not say no. The CAB frenzy made this worse... Trust me I can tell you stories about the asinine things I saw folks do in effort to get a CAB when I was Deputy Brigade Commander during the surge in Iraq... But, I also know of similar instances with the CIB.
I suspect, most of our infantry brothers think the CAB is BS, and that is OK. I know that what we do matters, and without us, you would fail.
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CPO (Join to see)
The CAB is not and never was meant to be awarded for Indirect fire of any kind, it is stated in the instruction.
The other is I am Navy, would never claim to be like Infantry, but was in some hot spots with 0311 unit's and Combat Engineer units and received the CAR Two times and both times the Grunts had no problem with us receiving the CAR, as we were on line with them period. By the way Marines do not just give the CAR out even to 0311's, they have to have every thing to back it up.
I kow an 11B from my hometown, we were in Iraq at same time and same FOB, he use to see us go out the gate every time and they stayed on the FOB. hey left the wire one time to do a presence patrol and 0 contact, but they got a CIB, it is up to the commanders on ground to do the right thing. By the way he said I was more disserving of the CAR I received vice his CIB. Now did I do Infantry Task, no, did I do solider stuff when in contact yes.
The other is I am Navy, would never claim to be like Infantry, but was in some hot spots with 0311 unit's and Combat Engineer units and received the CAR Two times and both times the Grunts had no problem with us receiving the CAR, as we were on line with them period. By the way Marines do not just give the CAR out even to 0311's, they have to have every thing to back it up.
I kow an 11B from my hometown, we were in Iraq at same time and same FOB, he use to see us go out the gate every time and they stayed on the FOB. hey left the wire one time to do a presence patrol and 0 contact, but they got a CIB, it is up to the commanders on ground to do the right thing. By the way he said I was more disserving of the CAR I received vice his CIB. Now did I do Infantry Task, no, did I do solider stuff when in contact yes.
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I think this is a good idea if there is a set standard such as was used for the CIB before the CAB was created. I was a 1SG of a Route Clearance Company in Iraq and had several Engineers not awarded the CAB because they did their job and found IEDs instead of them finding them. It didn't make sense that the Brigade Commanders had the authority to set their own standards. I also believe that there should not be promotion points awarded so we stop CAB hunting.
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COL Charles Williams
The problem 1SG Dale Sanford , with the CAB, the CIB and many awards is the lack of fidelity in the system created by commanders who loosely or too strictly interpret the regulations. I have seen CIB hunting, and CIBs awarded via battle rosters (all). My first PSG had interesting stories about how the CIB and BSM were awarded in 1ID vs 11ACR in Vietnam.
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1SG Dale Sanford
Since some commanders have given their units blanket CAB awards, I think that is the only fair option. Unfortunately, this does lower the significance of the award. Maybe that is the solution to stop soldiers to stop hunting them.
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I was not in the Army, but this is a little comical, I was in the Corps from 55 to 59 in 56 was awarded the China service medal, but I am not qualified for the National defense medal, I belong to the VFW which recognizes the China service as a foreign war , but can not join the American Legion because I was not eligible for the National Defense medal .means I could be exposed to life threating situations and not eligible for the National Defense but a man (woman) setting at an office desk in the states is awarded the Defense medal because of a time period. Because of using time periods instead of actual involvement makes a lot of badges and or medals nothing more then colors on you chest.
By the way just because I do not have the Defense medal I can not wear my dress blues at national ceremonies , I belong to the Marine Corps League which was legislated by congress 76 years ago. And any one awarded the defense medal or retired , can wear their blues at ceremonies.
By the way just because I do not have the Defense medal I can not wear my dress blues at national ceremonies , I belong to the Marine Corps League which was legislated by congress 76 years ago. And any one awarded the defense medal or retired , can wear their blues at ceremonies.
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COL Charles Williams
Thanks. I believe many veterans were disadvantaged by those years. My father in law was in the same boat, and hence he was not eligible for many VA benefits
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I have seen a few posts on this thread that are just plain ignorant. if properly trained, every soldier is a rifleman. personally I like the CAB and I wore it with pride because not every soldier who deploys earns one. granted, many soldiers who were awarded the CAB did not truly earn it. ie. " I got my CAB in KAF because the other side of the base was hit by IDF." both of the MOS's that I held could be considered as "POG" MOS's, but I was a.50 cal gunner and M240B gunner my whole 1st deployment. I was fired upon and returned fire upon the enemy. In the end I was a paratrooper and a rifleman and am proud to have earned the honor regardless of my MOS. would I demand recognition for it? no. would I turn it down? absolutley not.
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COL Charles Williams
Many Soldiers in our Army, don't understand all the support Soldiers required per Infantryman (Tooth to Tail), nor do they realize many others, aside from the Infantry fight, and take casualties. As a combat supporter, I have always known that. At some point, int the life of an Infantry, they realize they can't do this alone, and they need all the rest of us. SGT John Rauch
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I have a big 1st Cavalry patch on my right shoulder and I know what I did when I was there, that's enough for me.
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So. If it does go down what is the process of "proving" you earned it? The same three sworn statements, in addition to the next to impossible to get incident report or a Purple Heart (not a fratricide PH mind you). I have see some of the comments on this thread, a laughable one is the "blanket awarding of the CAB to entire brigades". The CAB is extremely hard to get, the award seems to have its share of guardians and subjective issues. So that being said, there would be folks serving who would have a second or possibly a third award of the CAB. For instance, desert storm vet, scud missle attacks that happened. Check that's the first, he/she then goes to Somalia, check that's the second and then take your pic of Iraq or afghan for the third.
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CPO (Join to see)
I think as I understand it would be like the CIB, you only get one for time period examples you brought up a guy that earned a CIB in Storm, and then in the Somalia and later in Iraq would still only rate one. As I understand CIB periods WW II, Korea, Vietnam and last period was Storm to Present.
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COL (Join to see)
SCUD Missiles wouldn't count, the AR specifically states "Active, Ground Combat"... IDF (even 5 feet away) is not sufficient. Also, the Soldier must "complete an Offensive or Defensive Action" while "Engaged or Engaging the Enemy".
So whereas you can earn multiple CABs, they must meet the required criteria.
So whereas you can earn multiple CABs, they must meet the required criteria.
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I could've been awarded one quite a few times. Didn't really pursue it. Looking back, maybe I kinda want one. But it seemed too cheesy at the time to submit paperwork, ask for statements, and chase a badge. I've seen my fair share of action. Now I'm like the soldier that goes to the VA that never went to sick call. Do I really want to go after it now, 5 years later. No! But it would be nice to have a little reminder of those few fights I was engaged in.
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