Posted on Jan 15, 2014
What changes would you make to the APFT if given the chance?
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Soldiers have a hard time taking an APFT and making height and weight all because they only are required to take one record APFT within a Fiscal year. Yes, they have to wiegh in twice a year, but what are your thoughts on this? How many times a year do you think we should we take an APFT? If you had to choose the events, what would they be?
APFT
Physical Training
Standards
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 34
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No, each MOS has unique physical needs. There are undisputed and unchangeable physiological differences between the sexes. Women and men will never be physically the same. As for the age thing, well it's obvious that most saying age shouldn't matter haven't crossed the 40 yr mark yet. After age 40 most men lose 10% testosterone production which affects muscle growth, there is also the slowing of metabolism which makes it harder to keep weight off. This is accompanied many times arthritis and other age related joint issues. After 20 years of pounding the ground in uniform things breakdown.
I wish I were in my 20s again everyday.
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As a Company Commander, when not "in the field", I scheduled one APFT per month. Repetition is the soldier's friend and it allows the command to use it as a make-up for those who may have missed, a diagnostic for new soldiers or a mile marker for everyone else. I thought it worked fabulously. If you are a Squad or Section Leader, with permission from your commander and 1SG, you could do one periodically, say once a quarter, for the benefit of your soldiers too.
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<p>Physicall Fitness is a personl responsibility. The APFT is designed to evaluate a soldiers fitness and is an individual activity. PRT can assist with maintaining a soldiers physical fitness but if it is not enough it is up to the soldier to get where they need to be by conducting PT on their own time. The frequency of the APFT and the events currently in place are sufficient for now if conducted correctly. The problem with selecting new events is determining how to evaluate them. That is what happend to the APRT.</p><p> </p><p>SFC Rice</p>
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CPL Michael Hostutler
Well I agree that is individual responsibility to stay fit. But I don't believe the APFT should be the same cause not all of our jobs require the same physical demand so there for each MOS should have there own standard. And there should be different age groups just like there is currently cause people's bodies wear Down and it does make it harder for them to maintain a standard that they could meet at 20 yrs old to include weight being the number one thing cause every persons metabolism is different and some peoples slow down why some never do. But with that being said if each MOS has it's own APFT standards both women and men should be treated equal to make it fair promotion wise and if they can't meet the standard they don't get the promotion
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Well, if you get rid of the age brackets, you wouldn't have anyone in the military over E-6 or O-3... Not all MOS's are cushy, some tear you up physically.
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I think they should not be warned when they will be taking a PFT and not know the distance or numbers needed to pass. It amazed me how many senior leaders would full apart if they needed to run more than 2 miles? First, we need to remember the real purpose of the PFT and then train our soldiers, for their and our own benfit, to be the best that they can be.
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CSM Mike Maynard
MSG Brad Sand - Interesting concept. You could also do an APFT similar to a Urinalysis - no notice.
Either way may give you a more honest assessment of your unit's actual physical fitness on a routine daily basis - which is the ultimate purpose of the APFT.
Either way may give you a more honest assessment of your unit's actual physical fitness on a routine daily basis - which is the ultimate purpose of the APFT.
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Sgt Randy Hill
Great question MSG Sand: I would replace the sit up event with a crunch event. I think sit ups are contributing to bad backs and other physical problems especially during a 20 year career.
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Deadlift (avg weight of soldier in full kit)
Timed 50, 100 meter sprint
Pull ups.
To explain my example a bit, I chose deadlifts because anybody needs to be able to pick up everybody, you never know when you will need to lift up and drag your battle buddy to an HLZ. Sprints, because that is the only type of movements you'd be making if you come under enemy fire and are seeking cover. And pull ups, to test upper body strength, which is important for really everything. Mounting a .50, pulling yourself over a wall, and many other movements needed in combat. No age differences, except if you're over 40. No gender differences either. And I say 40 because at 40 men start to lose up to 10% of testosterone and physically cannot be held to the standard of a 18 year old. No offense to our older gentlemen and ladies! And finally, make it MOS specific and shape it to the needs of the job.
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CW2 (Join to see)
i have always thought the Dead lift and sprints should be added to the APFT. The one big advantage to the current APFT is you can take it everywhere because you only need a trace and a patch of flat land. That would be the problem with the dead life. It would be hard to get the right equipment that is standard across the board. But maybe a dead lift of your assigned gear and a sprint in full gear a longer sprint with. That way you would still be able to administrate the APFT easily and have a good representation of your physical abilities.
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Yes I believe 101% in the scores being the same across the board. I know plenty of females that can run 2 miles in under 14 minutes and a handful that can do it in under 13 and get 300+ on their PT tests every time. I also know some pretty strong females that can out lift a lot of male soldiers in the Army.
I however, do not feel that it should be broken down into MOS specific standards.
WHY?
Because we are all soldiers FIRST regardless of what MOS we are in and we should all be able to pass the same standard to be a soldier FIRST.
MOS specific standards can be looked into by CG's or section NCOIC's if people feel that a higher standard needs to be met.
Some MOS's are always going to be more physical than others and that is why we have leaders within units to take the standards to the next level in order to meet the demands and standards that unit has to be at to complete the mission.
Events should be pull-ups or push-ups (I prefer pull-up because it promotes a stronger back which is needed more then developing a strong chest when it comes to things you do in the Army like ruck marches and just carrying heavy things in general) 1.5 or 2 mile run, and sit-ups.
I hope that a strength standard will be implemented one day that would make soldiers have to be able to squat and lift a certain amount of weight.
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Yes, should be the same for all. My events<div><br></div><div>Push ups (1min)</div><div>Pull ups</div><div>1 mile run</div><div>Sit ups (1min)</div><div>This would be Army standard then I would have MOS specific</div><div><br></div>
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PO1 Rudy Lopez
I have to disagree with you on the "no" age bracketing strictly from a medical point of view. As you get older your ability to recover decreases and your likelihood of physical degradation and injury increases. If this doesn't apply to you then you are probably the lucky recipient of good genes. You can say that with a proper diet and exercise routine this can be prevented/postponed, however, no matter how good your routine mother nature will eventually take over.<br><br>Now, what about those people in the special operations community (where I used to be an operator). It is fair to assume that they (special operators) punish their bodies far greater than those who are not in this community. So how do you account for individuals who are susceptible to accelerated degradation of their bodies? Still the one "bar" fits all mentality?<br><br>Now, using your logic where do we put the bar for physical standards? At the Special Operator level because everyone should maintain top physical fitness right? The Infantry Level pretty physical right? The Admin Personnel Level as fair middle ground? Or at a level where we take the female biological form and function into consideration? Which one is the bar? Higher or Lower? Should we still not bracket male/female?<br><br>You are probably right, a 45 year old military female should be held to the same standard as a fit 18 year old male in all professions.<br><br>MOS specific would not take away from my argument as I will use the same argument for this area as well.<br>
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I don't think soldiers have a hard time passing because they are only "required" to take a record PT test once a year. They have a hard time passing because they don't take the initiative and time to keep themselves in shape. The standard is already there. The responsibility is on the soldier. Physical fitness is part of our military duty. Period. you could conduct record PT tests every month and most of the same Joes will fail it...consistently. In the Guard, we don't have remedial Pt like we did in the Army. However, that shouldn't exempt soldiers from being accountable. I think squad leaders should take the initiative and not only counsel PT failures, but actively encourage soldiers to do PT on their own by having their soldiers log their efforts at home. when I was doing my OCS thing, I'd have to drive to campus three days a week, thirty miles away and conduct morning PT. I wasn't even taking classes. As an alternate plan, I did Pt on my own, at home, and submitted my activities to my Commander every Friday. It worked fine and kept me accountable. The APFT fail rate for my current platoon is over 80%! Nobody is intimidated by negative counseling...because we don't do them.
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I do not know if the current APFT is broken. The HT-WT program is and is needing overhauled. Maybe I am old school but I do not think I would change any thing about it.
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For females, I think pushups should be increased (not by a lot), and their run needs to be increased also.
There is no reason a 20 minute 2-mile should be acceptable as passing in my own opinion.
Of course, the height/weight issue needs to be addressed but that's another problem in itself.
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Us Marines having to take two different fitness tests a year keeps us in check. The physical fitness test during the first half of the year and the combat fitness test during the back half of the year. Plus having to do height/weight verification every promotion picture, resident PME, special duty assignments and checking in and out of units also keeps us in line. You definitely need to be checked more than once a year IMO.
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I think everyone should take a diag APFT at least every quarter, to know where you stand. I have been in my current unit 14 months and have taken 7-8 APFTs for different reasons(SLC,airborne physical,etc) and planning on taking another one this month to see how my pt program is working for me, and it also shows my soldiers that I am there with them when they take it
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CW2 (Join to see)
Outstanding!
As I have witnessed Sgt, in my opinion you are the epitome of what an NCO should be.You continued to motivate and challenge soldiers to be the best.
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Chiming in from the Marine Corps side of the argument; I agree they should be the same. I know that we are similar in the ways that we form units to fight and support the war fighters; and sometimes those support (or rear area) personnel find themselves all alone on the battlefield with no infantry around them. Everyone needs to be able to withstand the rigors of combat and be fit. The enemy does not shoot slower at an old NCO or Warrant Officer just because they are old nor do they give quarter to a female out of courtesy. One standard! Just like most of you I served in a community that had females that were very capable but only required to run a mile and a half while I was required to run 3 miles for my semiannual PFT, although I had to do twice the work for the same perfect score, we competed for the same promotion spots.
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CWO3 Brent Kern
As an after thought, if there is anyone that is dumb enough to doubt a female's ability; take a look at the girls of cross fit. They are amazing examples of fitness and would put many of my Marine brothers to shame. Just sayin.
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PO1 Rudy Lopez
If that is the case then Cross-Fit should be the standard for military Physical Fitness Test and not the current PFT??
As for "the enemy doesn't shoot slower an old NCO or Warrant Officer" comment, you could also argue that in combat you are running no more than 50-100 yards at any given time so what good is a 3 mile run then? Maybe the PRT should be should be 3 miles worth of 50-100 yard sprints?
As for "the enemy doesn't shoot slower an old NCO or Warrant Officer" comment, you could also argue that in combat you are running no more than 50-100 yards at any given time so what good is a 3 mile run then? Maybe the PRT should be should be 3 miles worth of 50-100 yard sprints?
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CWO3 Brent Kern
That is a reason why the Marine Corps implemented the Combat Fitness Test; and I would support some Cross Fit exercises instead if the standard PT tests.
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I'm gonna probably go against the grain here but....no. For many different MOS' there are MANY different physical requirements. I'm sure there is thousands of bored officers and senior NCOs somewhere that would just love to spend the next couple of years coming up with a set standard for all the different MOS'. Now within those MOS' between M/F and different age groups? Yes their should be the same standard. To do the job of a 19D Cavalary Scout (My MOS) the physical requirements of putting removing and cleaning an M242 25mm Bushmaster cannon are the same whether you are male or female; or 19 years to 59. Still weighs 250 lbs no matter who you are.
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1SG (Join to see)
If you're lucky enough to get stuck on the light side of being a 19D you have the opportunity to lug around the javelin and CLU system (50lbs) LRAS3 with accessories (200lbs) your combat load and gear (60lbs depending) 3 clicks to set up a 6 man OP. Why did I want to do this again?
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I retired 3 years ago. 12 years Army, 12 years Air Force. Been through the changes in both for pt. I would eliminate the test as it is. Build an obstacle course that would challenge upper, lower, core and speed and agility. A set number of obstacles to complete. This would be a timed event, no score, pass or fail.
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If I was in charge the sit up would go away ASAP. You don't need a doctorate to know that this exercise is ridiculous.
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- Same standard for males and females. Equal treatment, right?
- Replace situps with another core exercise.
- Add pull ups.
- Replace situps with another core exercise.
- Add pull ups.
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One standard for all and it's pass or fail. I have little use for the APFT score as an evaluation tool when comparing you to others if all of you are graded on different scales. I hold physical fitness in a high regard and I push subordinates to achieve a high level of fitness for the unit and their sake, but to compare people with the score is flawed if the scale is different. I am ok with adding an additional physical test per MOS or duty as well. We use the APFT score to differentiate and rank people and unless they are the same age and gender then we should not be doing that
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