Posted on Jun 12, 2016
What do you do when a soldier refuses to listen to your directions?
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This is a general question. If you have a soldier who refuses to listen to you, as a non-commissioned officer, do you simply put the incident on paper?
Example given- A soldier has unauthorized sunglasses on in a formation. You tell the soldier to take the sunglasses off. He/she refuses.
On the 4856, do you recommend for UCMJ? I've gone thru 600-20 and cannot find anything regarding this
Example given- A soldier has unauthorized sunglasses on in a formation. You tell the soldier to take the sunglasses off. He/she refuses.
On the 4856, do you recommend for UCMJ? I've gone thru 600-20 and cannot find anything regarding this
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 770
1. You remove the sunglasses and crush them beneath your feet.
2. Feel Private Snuffy's dreams being crushed there as well.
3. Revel in your awesomeness as Private Snuffy cries about his $200 Ray Bans, knowing that is the last time he will question your authoritay!
2. Feel Private Snuffy's dreams being crushed there as well.
3. Revel in your awesomeness as Private Snuffy cries about his $200 Ray Bans, knowing that is the last time he will question your authoritay!
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SGT Michael Raymond
1SG Irvin Collins TOP, This post, this question is scary to me. You guys seem like your raising children not building soldiers. I’m reading posts of soldiers complaining about doing PT on 4-5 hours of sleep, we have NCO’s asking what if my soldiers don’t obey me? What is going on? So now they reach out to social media instead of their chain of command and the hands on NCO mentoring them? I don’t know, it just seems like the Army is now about “Management”, not Leadership! If that is accurate, I certainly would want nothing to do with Administrators playing soldier, so there’s no way I would even join a Military like that! Why? They’d get me killed for sure. The Army babying these men doesn’t help them, it’s making you all look weak because it is weak. My concern is that The Army has become a culture of weakness that’s being implemented by administrators! Hopefully I’ve totally missed it and my concerns are not valid.
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SGT Jim Wiseman
SGT Michael Raymond - I stayed in the military for five years after I was injured in Afghanistan. I was Infantry. I spent seven years in and got to take a medical discharge. I could probably have pushed and stayed longer, reclassed. I was a late-life entry. I was about 37 when I went in as a E-1 fuzzy. I expected the Army to be hard and I got pretty much what I expected. The Army life isn't nearly as hard as most would have you believe, but it definitely has it's difficulties.
It's not nearly as bad as kids today believe. I took my discharge because I just saw the complaints from the marshmallow soldiers as getting worse the further out I would have gone. They need to be "managed" for sure. The unbelievable amount they are NOT taught is astounding! The building of soldiers is sacrificed to the management and is draining. I've held the belief for a while that in the next major war we get into, that civilian parents will wonder why so many of their kids are being shipped back in boxes. Or that so many experienced soldiers are dying out there when we'll all know it's because we couldn't properly train them.
But will someone have the boldness to stand against the grain and tell them in a "no-s**t" fashion that's it's because society has forced us to walk on eggshells around their kids? How many of us that will be physically able will be called upon to come back in to offer instruction and be rougher on them to get the point across? It doesn't have to be the (arguably) hazing-style rituals, but there should be something memorable about the lessons being taught. Traditional ceremonies like blood badges shouldn't be banned, but the use of a sledgehammer resulting in a broken collar bone should always be considered carefully! Pushups aren't necessarily the remedy for all screw-ups, but it can be the form of corrective training for many things.
A kid I knew screwed up for not securing the Humvee correctly one night. Nothing was stolen, but could have been. The corrective action was him locking and unlocking it x number of times in order to remember to lock and secure it in the future. Tailor corrective action to fit the desired outcome. Yell when you need to yell, because, like any kid could tell you, the embarrassment of being seen to be yelled at in public is worse than the yelling. Making the action memorable is the key. Doing physical fitness as punishment or yelling at someone as the universal panacea turns it into: "Do you know how many times that happened to me? I can't even remember why most times they made me do it for."
It's not nearly as bad as kids today believe. I took my discharge because I just saw the complaints from the marshmallow soldiers as getting worse the further out I would have gone. They need to be "managed" for sure. The unbelievable amount they are NOT taught is astounding! The building of soldiers is sacrificed to the management and is draining. I've held the belief for a while that in the next major war we get into, that civilian parents will wonder why so many of their kids are being shipped back in boxes. Or that so many experienced soldiers are dying out there when we'll all know it's because we couldn't properly train them.
But will someone have the boldness to stand against the grain and tell them in a "no-s**t" fashion that's it's because society has forced us to walk on eggshells around their kids? How many of us that will be physically able will be called upon to come back in to offer instruction and be rougher on them to get the point across? It doesn't have to be the (arguably) hazing-style rituals, but there should be something memorable about the lessons being taught. Traditional ceremonies like blood badges shouldn't be banned, but the use of a sledgehammer resulting in a broken collar bone should always be considered carefully! Pushups aren't necessarily the remedy for all screw-ups, but it can be the form of corrective training for many things.
A kid I knew screwed up for not securing the Humvee correctly one night. Nothing was stolen, but could have been. The corrective action was him locking and unlocking it x number of times in order to remember to lock and secure it in the future. Tailor corrective action to fit the desired outcome. Yell when you need to yell, because, like any kid could tell you, the embarrassment of being seen to be yelled at in public is worse than the yelling. Making the action memorable is the key. Doing physical fitness as punishment or yelling at someone as the universal panacea turns it into: "Do you know how many times that happened to me? I can't even remember why most times they made me do it for."
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SGT Michael Raymond - ....
It's A New Military. I Served During The Days Of The Dinosaur, 1961 - 1965, And That's When Only MEN Were Allowed To Serve.
Today's A Sad Excuse Of "Well Trained Soldiers"; Too Few TRUE Men In An Entire Squadron Any More & Everyone Has Their "Rights"..,
It Sure Wasn't Even CONSIDERED a Few Decades Ago.
During My Enlistment, You DID As You Were Damned Well TOLD.
What A Bunch Of Woosie Bull Shit Artists Today.
It's A New Military. I Served During The Days Of The Dinosaur, 1961 - 1965, And That's When Only MEN Were Allowed To Serve.
Today's A Sad Excuse Of "Well Trained Soldiers"; Too Few TRUE Men In An Entire Squadron Any More & Everyone Has Their "Rights"..,
It Sure Wasn't Even CONSIDERED a Few Decades Ago.
During My Enlistment, You DID As You Were Damned Well TOLD.
What A Bunch Of Woosie Bull Shit Artists Today.
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SPC Joe Snuffy, 12 June 2016 at approximately 0630 you refused to remove sunglasses after being given an order to do so. Your actions place you in violation of ARTICLE 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER. For these actions I am recommending to the commander that you recieve punishment under Article 15 of the UCMJ.
Kiss of death statement currently in use by your JAG.
Kiss of death statement currently in use by your JAG.
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SGT Robert Martin
This is a simple question really. You escalate the situation until compliance is gained. If that means axe handle to the head on the next field problem so be it. Then find a leader to show you where you went wrong. Hate me all you want, but attitude reflects leadership. This situation is on the NCO.
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1LT George Walsh
Totally agree. Such insubordination/lack of discipline can lead to torturing prisoners and murdering civilians.
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I would absolutely crush a Soldier who was disrespectful or insubordinate to one of my NCO's.
Blatant insubordination like this in my formation (that NCO is acting as my representative in this case) would be recommended for field grade action and maxed out at that. Aside from the rank and pay, I have to give 4 hours of sleep per 24 hour period. Nowhere does it say it has to be consecutive. They'd get 20 minutes at a time.
That should be enough to make my point.
This type of behavior is a cancer and it will spread of you don't crush it. Of course, having been an NCO prior, I take a very serious view on this.
Blatant insubordination like this in my formation (that NCO is acting as my representative in this case) would be recommended for field grade action and maxed out at that. Aside from the rank and pay, I have to give 4 hours of sleep per 24 hour period. Nowhere does it say it has to be consecutive. They'd get 20 minutes at a time.
That should be enough to make my point.
This type of behavior is a cancer and it will spread of you don't crush it. Of course, having been an NCO prior, I take a very serious view on this.
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SPC Terry Pack
SGT Robert Martin - That is not necessarily on you. There is always going to be a soldier that is going to buck authority for whatever reason. The command structure is there to support you, especially in the 21st century. Had this been in the Vietnam Era, you could have stomped his guts out, and there may have been no more to it. Too many of these brats think they can do whatever they desire, because they have been trained that way their entire life. The command structure is needed more than ever for these seemingly minor things. Protect yourself by using it.
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SPC Donald Donovan
A solder who refuses an order, no matter how small, is someone who will question authority and get himself or someone else killed. I I tell you to duck, you duck. You do not turn around and ask why as the bullets rip through your insubordinate body. Unauthorized eye wear is "UNAUTHORIZED" for a reason. Not to bust your chops, because there is a reason we do as we are told. If you do not agree, take it up later in private, unless you wish to REMAIN a Private.
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SPC Logan Cameron
hey, Captain Dumbass. it actually IS four consecutive hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. after 24 hours the cognitive effect is similar to chugging three beers at once, and it's an effect that doesn't diminish, only worsens. literally any medic or brigade surgeon (that, duh, the medics work for) will tell you this. I would absolutely LOVE to watch you stand at attention while the bird colonel in charge of the hospital tears you apart with your BN commander standing by you getting the same as a result of your actions.
you have options to effectively correct the problem. that aint one, fix yourself.
Doc Out.
you have options to effectively correct the problem. that aint one, fix yourself.
Doc Out.
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SPC John Leite
I lost a stripe because I flat out refused to suck hot engine oil out of an M48A5's engine that had been overfilled the day before when my tank was driven by someone who obviously had no clue how to read a dipstick, (I had been on head count). we were at Camp Roberts, Ca. and we were at a fully equipped tank maintenance / repair facility, they're supposed to have a little pump for that very purpose available and they didn't and the SFC handed me a length of hose and ORDERED me to suck that hot motor oil out, I respectfully refused, this event and losing a stripe over it has been bugging me for the last 39 YEARS and the thing is, IF it had been a combat situation, I would've done pretty much ANYTHING to get that oil out of the crankcase rather than risk damage to that tank's engine, because our mobility IS LIFE but we were in a full service maintenance facility that is supposed to have that pump ON HAND. I didn't think that I deserved that Article 15 and loss of a stripe. That event also soured my attitude toward remaining in the service and since I already had my 6 year obligation done I did not re-up like I had been planning on.
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Soldiers refusing to follow orders? This is were the army is going. Bring back wall to wall counseling and these problems won't happen nearly as much.
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CPL Joseph Elinger
MSG (Join to see)
The only * "smoking" I remember in Boot, consisted of (usually group) High Intensity Interval Training (H.I.I.T).
The only * "smoking" I remember in Boot, consisted of (usually group) High Intensity Interval Training (H.I.I.T).
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CPL Joseph Elinger
PO3 Chris Scheide
I heard of them but NEVER saw 1 during service.
I think that's what you call a VA Health ID.
I heard of them but NEVER saw 1 during service.
I think that's what you call a VA Health ID.
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GENERAL MILITARY AUTHORITY
3-27. General military authority originates in oaths of office and enlistment, law, rank structure, traditions, and regulations. This broad-based authority allows leaders to take appropriate corrective actions whenever a member of any armed service, anywhere, commits an act involving a breach of good order or discipline. Army Regulation 600-20, Army Command Policy, states this specifically, giving commissioned, warrant, and noncommissioned officers authority to "quell all quarrels, frays, and disorders among persons subject to military law." The purpose of this authority is to maintain good order and discipline.
What DID I do? I told the SM to remove them,, they did.
The only SM I ever had say no to an order, to get inside after picking him up from the MP's...He refused to move, I insisted, he refused, I assisted physically, he resisted physically, I put him on the ground and explained that he would be moving under his own power or with help inside the building and fighting was only going to cause a short delay with one of us getting hurt more than the other.. As i was on top in a dominant position in control of a locked joint, he elected to refrain from further physical attack and move into the building on his own power.
3-27. General military authority originates in oaths of office and enlistment, law, rank structure, traditions, and regulations. This broad-based authority allows leaders to take appropriate corrective actions whenever a member of any armed service, anywhere, commits an act involving a breach of good order or discipline. Army Regulation 600-20, Army Command Policy, states this specifically, giving commissioned, warrant, and noncommissioned officers authority to "quell all quarrels, frays, and disorders among persons subject to military law." The purpose of this authority is to maintain good order and discipline.
What DID I do? I told the SM to remove them,, they did.
The only SM I ever had say no to an order, to get inside after picking him up from the MP's...He refused to move, I insisted, he refused, I assisted physically, he resisted physically, I put him on the ground and explained that he would be moving under his own power or with help inside the building and fighting was only going to cause a short delay with one of us getting hurt more than the other.. As i was on top in a dominant position in control of a locked joint, he elected to refrain from further physical attack and move into the building on his own power.
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SSgt Tye Keppler
Soldier did not specify that he was on a profile. Soldier would or should have stated this before an unlawful response.
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SGT Michael Douglass
Cpl Benjamin Long - Quit being a millenial asshole! You are assuming that any other logical person would think like you. I can tell you they wouldn't! Given totality of circumstances the SGM was not only justified, he was right!
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Cpl Benjamin Long
SGT Michael Douglass - Millennial... I see not knowing anything before you speak is your qualitative trait... as far as what you have to say... it is immaterial... your "logic" is nothing more than cheer-leading... there is no qualitative substance... that adds or subtracts to this discussion, other than to cheer-lead for another, and to insult me with an inappropriate label....
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SGT Kenneth Hardy
Does anyone else find cpl long disrespectful as shit considering he's just being argumentative prick fighting with senior enlisted leaders? Must be one of the SMS that Cry's assault every time he is disciplined. Sgm Marquez I believe NCOs have a right to "assist" if they refuse put there ass in the ground! Enough of this sensitive army bull shit
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I can't believe this question was even asked! Welcome to the Pussification of the Army!
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SPC Christopher Covington
This is the only comment that directly addresses the real issue. CMSgt Wright has officially won the internet today!
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SSG David Stafne
As a young PFC, I had a disagreement with my Squad Leader about Barracks Maintenance to which he calmly locked the door and conducted a Wall-to-Wall Counseling Session. Rumors spread throughout the Company to the CO, during the ensuing Investigation my 2 roommates, who were in the room at the time, backed up my testimony that my Squad Leader was demonstrating Hand-To-Hand Combat Techniques.
This type of Leadership works! Because 2 months after my “Counseling Session “ I was the BN Soldier of the Month, 3 months later Bde Soldier of the Quarter and 8 months later, Division Soldier if the Year!
This type of Leadership works! Because 2 months after my “Counseling Session “ I was the BN Soldier of the Month, 3 months later Bde Soldier of the Quarter and 8 months later, Division Soldier if the Year!
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Take them off his/her face, snap them in half and then give them back.
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PO2 Joseph Fast
LCDR Bruce Cooley - I think you made a mistake. But then again, this was the military. A PO2 doesn't believe they should be allowed to defy them openly. A PO2 does however understand personal property. Crush the soldier, not the possessions. Destroy the soldier, not the money.
Please don't confuse this as "don't take away the money". No, I am speaking of destroying money. I fully believe soldiers and sailors have acted in accordance that deserved "losing money". I just don't think you should give them the money, then burn it. Destroying personal property is destroying their money. Also, in this case, they were not authorized to destroy that money and it can come back to hurt them.
Please don't confuse this as "don't take away the money". No, I am speaking of destroying money. I fully believe soldiers and sailors have acted in accordance that deserved "losing money". I just don't think you should give them the money, then burn it. Destroying personal property is destroying their money. Also, in this case, they were not authorized to destroy that money and it can come back to hurt them.
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PO2 Joseph Fast
SFC Robert Bower - Wish I had seen your comments 3 years ago. Need punched in the face? LMAO. I expect this from people with double digit IQs. Only mindless morons think of violence in place of debate. Please resume licking your windows tough man.
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1LT William Clardy
I like lots of words, SFC Robert Bower. "Brutish" is far from a favorite, but it's hard to avoid when disagreeing with a claim that someone is an "[u]nintelligent brute".
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PO3 Bill Clayton
Get directly in his face. Explain that he is out of uniform and disobeying a Direct Order, loud enough for all to hear. Explain the UCMJ consequences and ask him to remove the RayBans and crush them himself, or you will bring charges against him. It is then his choice.
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SFC Scott Wallace
PO3 Bill Clayton - crushing will never fly nowadays. Up to that great approach. SM needs to be counseled, if you go for UCMJ action, be sure to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's" - former DS
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Pen to paper, paper to chain, repeat as necessary. Avoid at all costs the temptation to rip his head off and shit down his neck..please!!
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - The military indeed isn't for the weak. And the best way to get rid of weak soldiers is with paperwork. If they don't want to play the game, then we don't need 'em. Next Soldier up. No point in wasting time on insubordinate troops.
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Cpl Justin Greenwell
I've honestly never seen this. But, if it is I think it's a bigger problem. They need to understand chain of command pretty quick
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SSG John Karr
SSG (Join to see) - Yeah I told my son that when he joined... "The military is not for everybody!". Today he is a damn fine NCO, someone I can be very proud of.
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This is according to my experience (13yrs TIS 10 yrs as an NCO) and ADRP 6-22 and include the NCO guide which covers on the spot corrections done right.
1. Always live up to the Army Values.
At all times treat all with dignity and respect to include your Soldiers when they display such patterns of misconduct that are unbecoming of a Soldier.
2. Correct the Soldiers deficiency and don't attack the individual by disrespecting him.
3. I had a wise mentor call 1SG Kelvin Ingram when I was a Drill Sergeant and he told me documention beats conversation. Document all everything in counseling document. Good and bad.
4. In the 4856 you will come up with a plan to fix the discrepancy. Remember that the punishment will fit the crime. And doing exercises is not corrective in nature, it teaches nothing but to hate your leader and it shows lack of leadership, understanding and inability to fix matters and develop others for the better.
5. Handle it at your level first (you're an NCO after all) once the Soldier has done the same discrepancy then type up another 4856 and involve the Squad Leader. Don't involve the SL at first, show him/her that you have tried to handle it first at your level. At the end of the day he or she needs to know the goods and the bass of the squad they're are responsible for. The point is show the Soldier/s and your COC that you want to develop the individual and not just out punish and chapter out. This also allows you the opportunity to develop yourself as a young NCO by learning from others experiences.
6. Never forget to follow up both in person and in document. This is the last portion of the 4856 that's nearly used, the assessment.
Again, this is my own habit and tips that I always have in mind when dealing with these matters. They're in no specific order even though they're numbered. By dealing with it this way your are printing a history of the Soldier weather for the best or the worst. Let them prove themselves a worthy Soldier Ana future NCO/Commisioned Officer or Warrant Officer or let them prove the need for UCMJ. You just show that you have done the right thing, conducted yourself like a true professional being fair and impartial. Last thing, I have noticed that a lot of Soldiers within the last 8yrs prefer to do push ups or any type of physical activity since they know and fear the documentation of such behaviors knowing that it will lead to unemployment for the military or UCMJ. I have had Soldiers tell me this and I've heard them talking about it. I've been in Schofield Barracks, Carson, Sill and Drum and heard this statement many times in my career from infantry to Supply clerks and personal clerks etc. This is my way of handling it and I offer it to you to base your own. Take what you want from me and others advice and make your own. Hope this helps.
1. Always live up to the Army Values.
At all times treat all with dignity and respect to include your Soldiers when they display such patterns of misconduct that are unbecoming of a Soldier.
2. Correct the Soldiers deficiency and don't attack the individual by disrespecting him.
3. I had a wise mentor call 1SG Kelvin Ingram when I was a Drill Sergeant and he told me documention beats conversation. Document all everything in counseling document. Good and bad.
4. In the 4856 you will come up with a plan to fix the discrepancy. Remember that the punishment will fit the crime. And doing exercises is not corrective in nature, it teaches nothing but to hate your leader and it shows lack of leadership, understanding and inability to fix matters and develop others for the better.
5. Handle it at your level first (you're an NCO after all) once the Soldier has done the same discrepancy then type up another 4856 and involve the Squad Leader. Don't involve the SL at first, show him/her that you have tried to handle it first at your level. At the end of the day he or she needs to know the goods and the bass of the squad they're are responsible for. The point is show the Soldier/s and your COC that you want to develop the individual and not just out punish and chapter out. This also allows you the opportunity to develop yourself as a young NCO by learning from others experiences.
6. Never forget to follow up both in person and in document. This is the last portion of the 4856 that's nearly used, the assessment.
Again, this is my own habit and tips that I always have in mind when dealing with these matters. They're in no specific order even though they're numbered. By dealing with it this way your are printing a history of the Soldier weather for the best or the worst. Let them prove themselves a worthy Soldier Ana future NCO/Commisioned Officer or Warrant Officer or let them prove the need for UCMJ. You just show that you have done the right thing, conducted yourself like a true professional being fair and impartial. Last thing, I have noticed that a lot of Soldiers within the last 8yrs prefer to do push ups or any type of physical activity since they know and fear the documentation of such behaviors knowing that it will lead to unemployment for the military or UCMJ. I have had Soldiers tell me this and I've heard them talking about it. I've been in Schofield Barracks, Carson, Sill and Drum and heard this statement many times in my career from infantry to Supply clerks and personal clerks etc. This is my way of handling it and I offer it to you to base your own. Take what you want from me and others advice and make your own. Hope this helps.
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SSG Robert White
SSG (Join to see) - If your not educating your soldiers about ALL of UCMJ, then that is a problem with leadership. The officers want to keep the enlisted stupid, but when someone get's into trouble, they will tell you there is no excuse for ignorance.
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SSG John Karr
Way back in 1981 I was given the platoon misfit because nobody else wanted him. My first action was to take SPC Park and sit him down and tell him what was expected of him (SPC Park was Korean, it fits in with the story later). I told him that if he fucked up I would deal with him appropriately but if he did well I would equally reward him as such. SPC Park decided to try me at my word and quickly wanted to see what I'd do if he fucked up. I wrote him up on a formal counseling statement to which he said "Sgt Karr why you want to do me like that?" to which I replied "I told you so." I was living in off base housing and had some neighbors who were Korean. I asked them if they would do me a favor and befriend SPC Park because he was unmarried and probably a little lonely. They agreed. About 4 months later I wrote SPC Park up for an ARCOM which he richly deserved.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG John Karr - That takes caring and desire to do what's right instead of going LOCO over it and making the individual worst in response to a negative leader. The basic responsibilities: Accomplish the mission and take care of Soldiers. It's hard and lots of work to take care of another human that has no other relation to you but that he is the Soldier assigned to you to look after. Your actions reflected and still reflect great credit upon you and the NCO Corp.
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