Posted on Feb 7, 2015
1SG David Lopez
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635586630760396023 arm ranger school women 1
Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.

 

 

Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez

Paso Robles, CA
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SSG Andrew Neeb
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LT, I commend you for being such a bad ass in PT. A 2:04 12 mile ruck is no joke, and you would surely smoke many men in combat arms on a road march. The Army has gotten soft in that regard and it is leaders like you who continue to set the standard for others to follow.

I disagree with women in Ranger school though, unless they serve in a Branch/MOS that required that type of training. Ranger school was designed for Rangers and Infantry who will actually use what they learned in combat during dismounted patrols. Why should anyone be allowed to go to a school, which requires American tax dollars to fund, if they have no use for those skills in their job.

It would be like sending a cook to Sapper school, or a rigger to the SFQC. I would prefer the Army to design a relevant gut check school for non-combat arms jobs instead of hijacking an advanced infantry school for political bullshit.

CA and PSYOPS are combat branches that allow women, but rarely require the skills learned in Ranger school. They would do better going to some kind of shooting school.

I am sure you could make it through any of these schools, but that should not be the justification for your attendance. As a tax payer, I find social experiments in the military to be wasteful at best.

Now I do agree with women being allowed into Spec Ops like the Green Beret's or the units in JSOC (CAG, The Activity, etc.). My wife was offered a chance to go to JSOC, to do exactly what was never explained, but we were on our way out of the Army. If done the right way, I think women can be a great asset to the Spec Ops community. Those types of units operate in a dynamic small group environment that have the flexibility required to accommodate women.

The same does not apply to the infantry or Rangers. Those are very rigid operations by design, and it would force the current commanders to "redesign the wheel". A wheel that was forged over hundreds of years and thousands of battles. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Then there are the Grunts. These men Make fine soldiers, but many of them are very rough around the edges. They are full of testosterone and even the foulest of females start to look good to them after a few weeks of training in the woods. I could see them getting themselves into a lot of trouble if they had a female in their ranks. They are men after all. This kind of trouble can hurt moral and cause dissension in the ranks, and eventually lives on the battlefield. Fight for women in Spec Ops, but please leave the Grunts alone. Their lives and jobs are hard enough already doing what they do.

If you really want to be a bad ass then check out JSOC, they are always looking for badasses like you. You may even get a Ranger school slot if you end up in one of their special units, along with many other cool schools. I've herd it is pretty much a requirement for many jobs over there. I know some people over there that could help you open that door if you are interested.
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MAJ David Vermillion
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If the Ranger School standards stay the same (which they Won't) it will be a great day. Here is what happens, you have a commander who is goal oriented and has the pressure of the higher commanders to see positive results and because the (highers) want success so badly, the standards will change. I hope when they start this class the RIs don't receive any undo pressure from the highers to pass people. I have seen this pressure and I have felt this pressure, OERs and EERs are real and fear of not be promoted sometime gets in the way. My attempt here is this, I am for females to attend Ranger School, and it's not the females I am worried about because they are going to go out there and give it their best shot, it's the chain of command that's the problem. My message, let the females do their thing. Not all will make it and that's fine, neither do all men make it. Don't change anything, it will work itself out. Good Rangering!
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1stLt Johnnie Incog
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Are there American women who could complete Ranger school? Most likely. Are all those women in the military, specifically the Army? Most likely not. Are all of those of this small group that ARE in the Army going to apply, or even want to be in the infantry? Absolutely not.
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SFC Richard M.
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I don't understand what the problem is. If you maintain the same standards for women as you do men, why would there be an issue?
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1stLt Johnnie Incog
1stLt Johnnie Incog
11 y
Because the normal trend os for standards to be lowered to get to the social engineers' desired result, because if standards are maintained, the number of female graduates will be smaller than the 'statistical representation in the population', rendering the standards as discrimanartory because they have a 'disparate effect'.
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COL Charles Williams
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Well, I think under current fabricated, and non-realistic pilot is dumb. I think we are ensuring women will make through, so we can then surmise that women can make it. Why aren't they going to Infantry OSUT and/or BLOC first? Yes, I know it is not an Infantry only school.

If we want to see if they can make it, then have them show up like the rest of us, and do it under the same conditions. Show up to any regular class and go for it.

All these experiments are skewed in one way or another.
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LtCol David Durcsak
LtCol David Durcsak
11 y
We have seen these arguments countless time before, why one group or another should be excluded and as I read through the comments I tend to see the same trend. If the course of training is presented without any modifications then a fair assessment can be made.

But, I must ask why we are making these changes? Is it for the good of the service? Does the service gain a capability that it didn't have before, or is this purely a politically motivated move, one that requires additional time and resources? Something no service has right now.

BTW. I'm a father of two girls and loathed in telling them that can't do anything. If they were to take the challenge, I know they would do it because that's what they wanted to do, and I would stand by them 100%.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
11 y
Good Comments! Interesting topic to say the least, and emotionally charged too.
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SPC Angel Guma
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You know what would be a big irony:

One of those females passes, then kicks a proud chest thumper's ass in combatives.

I have no quarrel if they meet standards. Bravado is not a standard.
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1SG David Lopez
1SG David Lopez
11 y
Good point, that would be something. Wish I was still an RI in order to see that myself. Heck, I'd even set it up, put the Female Stud (Stud is short for Ranger Student) partnered up with some wimpy male stud. That would be a sight to see, get your iphones out to record. LOL, just joking.
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
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This is all I have to say about this: read Brad Thor's "The Athena Project". If anyone's read it then you'll know what I'm talking about.
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1SG David Lopez
1SG David Lopez
11 y
I will try.
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
SSG (Join to see)
11 y
1SG David Lopez, cool. It's a great book as well as all his other ones. Recommend starting with the first one "The Lions of Lucerne" then working forward.
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1SG David Lopez
1SG David Lopez
11 y
I seen on amazon there were several books. I did not know if they are related or if they are stand alones. Thanks
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MAJ David Vermillion
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Retired Ranger of class 8-69.
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1SG David Lopez
1SG David Lopez
11 y
Hoo-Ah, RLTW!
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Cpl Brett Wagner
Cpl Brett Wagner
11 y
MAJ David Vermillion and 1SG David Lopez - Have you seen the discussion here on RP about Hoo-Ah? I had a bunch of young soldiers rag me out because they said it is stupid, ignorant and a terrible word. WTF over? I told them any Ranger I ever new loved Hoo-Ah the way a Marine loves Ooh Rah. It's a badge of honor for crying out loud. Why would any soldier consider it any less?
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1SG David Lopez
1SG David Lopez
11 y
Hoo-Ah says it all, I still use it daily at my 2nd career, people here must think I'm crazy answering them with Hoo-Ah. I can't help it, it's who I am, I am Hoo-Ah, here I go again pounding my own chest....
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SPC David S.
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Edited 11 y ago
No I never went to Ranger school but I thought 'Rangers Lead the Way'. Not only in their energy in which they meet the enemy but also in thinking and in esprit de corps. Don't Rangers also push, challenge, and lead others by example? Are you not an example for your female warriors? Should they not strive to be more like you and also want to lead the way? If nothing else don't they deserve the chance to at least give it a go?
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1SG David Lopez
1SG David Lopez
11 y
I fully understand where you are coming from. I also taught ROTC and at West Point, both included females. Aa an RI, and Senior RI, I would really hate to have an RI in a position when he uses explicit language, as is normal in the school for boys, and have a sexual harrassment charge from a female who may want an easy way out of Ranger School. Just one example I mention, but the point is, it's gonna be ugly. We (the general public) will not hear of these circumstances, but bet, from my experience, it will happen. Just saying... On the other hand, I am positive that there are females that are super humans and can kick the crap out of ole 1SG and all the Ranger School standards, it's gonna be, eventually.... I Salute those females that kick Ranger School butt and ask for more, RLTW, Hoo-Ah!
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SSG John M.
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SSG John M.
SSG John M.
11 y
That one is for Regiment
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