Posted on Nov 20, 2014
What is more important, your career or your integrity and honor?
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We have had many spirited debates on many controversial issues. Some have been about religion and politics, others about whether or not our C-I-C if found guilty should be apprehended or dealt with by the military. I am not trying to address these points, but want to know which is more important to you, speaking what you believe to be true or hiding behind a mask of political correctness? These discussions have brought out unnecessary personal attacks which I feel are beneath us because of our mutual service to our Country. We should be able to converse with mutual respect, honesty and integrity and quit any personal attacks or inferences that attacks have been made as a result of someone's post! And, do you feel as though being politically correct is beneficial in military and/or civilian society?
Honor
Integrity
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 29
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Career all the way!
Nah, I'm just kidding. I think, for most SM, their honor and integrity are what build their career. Without them we would just be another bunch of corporate robots.
Nah, I'm just kidding. I think, for most SM, their honor and integrity are what build their career. Without them we would just be another bunch of corporate robots.
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A man (or woman) only has their word to be measured by when it all counts. It is a hard lesson that I wish my son would learn sooner than later in life. The military has given me words to describe values and actions imparted upon me as a young man from my Uncles and Dad. Integrity and Honor are right there at the pinnacle of what a man person (gender unspecific) should be.
The career folks usually end up being toxic at at least one or every stage of leadership that they are trusted to uphold. Commanders that credit their formations with their success are often the naturals.......
The career folks usually end up being toxic at at least one or every stage of leadership that they are trusted to uphold. Commanders that credit their formations with their success are often the naturals.......
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Integrity, Honor, then career. You can't have honor without integrity, right?
I don't understand the black-and-white analysis though. What exactly is political correctness, PO1 Steven Kuhn? What if something you label as political correctness happens to be what someone "believe[s] to be true"?
Personal attacks, ad hominem, are never called for, but hurting someone's feelings is not necessarily an ad hominem.
Mutual respect is the operative catch phrase. There is no mutual respect possible when a member of this forum disparages homosexual Service-members, for instance. One's personal beliefs, even religious beliefs, must be left alone. But one's right to "swing" those personal moral beliefs ends when they meet the "nose" of another Service-member.
I don't understand the black-and-white analysis though. What exactly is political correctness, PO1 Steven Kuhn? What if something you label as political correctness happens to be what someone "believe[s] to be true"?
Personal attacks, ad hominem, are never called for, but hurting someone's feelings is not necessarily an ad hominem.
Mutual respect is the operative catch phrase. There is no mutual respect possible when a member of this forum disparages homosexual Service-members, for instance. One's personal beliefs, even religious beliefs, must be left alone. But one's right to "swing" those personal moral beliefs ends when they meet the "nose" of another Service-member.
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PO1 Steven Kuhn
LTC (Join to see) Political Correctness is a predefined set of rules protecting an idea or issue that many can find fault with or have an issue against, but are prevented from speaking the truth of their opinion because of violating the boundary that being politically correct offers the aforementioned topic. I can totally disagree with your viewpoint without attacking you as an individual. I can totally disagree with your lifestyle or anything you have to say or offer. Some issues are sidestepped or answered with a politically correct response desired to avoid offending someone or something. Sometimes we need to address tough issues where one of us may need to cover up our belly button (in the sense of being jabbed with the sword of truth). We are prevented from discussing a range of topics or must tiptoe around issues on the basis of being politically correct unless it comes to Christianity, then we can be disabused for our positions. Take homosexuality for an example. I disagree with it from a religious standpoint but am forced to acknowledge it in the interests of political correctness even though the non-heterosexual population is estimated to be 96% leaving an estimated 4% for the number of homosexuals. We can tear up a persons religious beliefs but we must keep up our political correctness mask up on full power. The same thing happens when someone tries to speak out against the militant aspects of Islam. There are truths out there, but these truths become distorted when we use the mask of political correctness. It is okay to be blatantly honest with someone as long as we are targeting the idea and not the individual with the idea. Each one of us has an opinion. Some of our opinions can be backed up with facts. Some evoke passionate responses because we may feel strongly for or against something. But I am hoping that the "something" is never the person who is honestly and respectfully trying to promote an idea or ask a question. I have read posts where our fellow service members have called another service member an idiot for their post or opinion. I believe that any person that does that lacks integrity and honor.
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Steve
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Steve
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LTC (Join to see)
PO1 Steven Kuhn, I promise to take a more thoughtful and comprehensive approach to responding later. Right now, I just wanted to address your comment about homosexuality; we seem to be having many discussions about this dead issue lately.
You are retired, so the applicable UCMJ rules don't apply to you, but since this is a military forum good taste should be the guiding principle in any discussion. I don't believe you are "forced to acknowledge it in the interests of political correctness." You should acknowledge homosexuality as a legitimate state of sexual orientation within the ranks, and active Service-members must acknowledge it and refrain from disparaging it; not "in the interests of political correctness," but in the interest of not attacking fellow Service-members. When the Department of Defense dropped "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and subsequently began recognizing same sex marriage, it was not telling you that your religious beliefs are wrong, it was making an inclusive policy based on federal law. As for your comment about the relative population sizes of heterosexuals and homosexuals, individual freedoms exist to prevent a tyranny of the majority. No one (not DOD or the government) is telling you what to believe or that you or anyone else must become homosexual; they are simply setting minimum standards of inclusion. This makes you feel personally offended, I get it. But if your feelings must be sacrificed, in this case, for the actual inclusion and acceptance of approximately 12,000,000 citizens (300,000,000 x 4%), then so be it, and I won't lose any sleep. Recognizing the Civil Rights of minorities in the 1960s was not hiding behind this supposed "mask of political correctness." It was the moral responsibility of a civilized people. With respect to sexual orientation, the argument and imperative are no different.
You are retired, so the applicable UCMJ rules don't apply to you, but since this is a military forum good taste should be the guiding principle in any discussion. I don't believe you are "forced to acknowledge it in the interests of political correctness." You should acknowledge homosexuality as a legitimate state of sexual orientation within the ranks, and active Service-members must acknowledge it and refrain from disparaging it; not "in the interests of political correctness," but in the interest of not attacking fellow Service-members. When the Department of Defense dropped "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and subsequently began recognizing same sex marriage, it was not telling you that your religious beliefs are wrong, it was making an inclusive policy based on federal law. As for your comment about the relative population sizes of heterosexuals and homosexuals, individual freedoms exist to prevent a tyranny of the majority. No one (not DOD or the government) is telling you what to believe or that you or anyone else must become homosexual; they are simply setting minimum standards of inclusion. This makes you feel personally offended, I get it. But if your feelings must be sacrificed, in this case, for the actual inclusion and acceptance of approximately 12,000,000 citizens (300,000,000 x 4%), then so be it, and I won't lose any sleep. Recognizing the Civil Rights of minorities in the 1960s was not hiding behind this supposed "mask of political correctness." It was the moral responsibility of a civilized people. With respect to sexual orientation, the argument and imperative are no different.
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PO1 Steven Kuhn
@Maj Ryan Kyle I in no way attacked it, I used it as a comparison. I have a loved family member who falls into that category and this person gets the same love and respect I show all my friends and family. I can be honest with this family member and we move past it together. Your response was an excellent example of that political correctness I mentioned, and I thank you sir for the technical assist.
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Steve
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Steve
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LTC (Join to see)
Sorry to disappoint. I was not talking about you attacking it. That phrase was in the context of active Service-members. Please go back up two posts and address my original question: What if something you label as political correctness happens to be what someone "believe[s] to be true"?
I can cut to the chase, if you won't. I think you are using "political correctness" to mean something you disagree with. Political correctness has nothing to do with honor, integrity, or career; this discussion is a ruse. I will let you evade the issues I posed, if you want.
I can cut to the chase, if you won't. I think you are using "political correctness" to mean something you disagree with. Political correctness has nothing to do with honor, integrity, or career; this discussion is a ruse. I will let you evade the issues I posed, if you want.
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My career spanned 30 years and I got tired of pushing electrons through wires within the first 10 or 12. Without Integrity I would never have been pushed by my peers to grow and excel, to take on more challenges than I though i was capable of managing. Without Honor I could have sucumbed to temptation to put my career before my Sailors, but they always came first.
I was pushed from the deckplates to lead, not from personal desire to standout and be recognized for my own accomplishments. Teams are built and lead by leaders who have integrity and sacrifice their time and sometimes their home life to build their troops and ships up. The only reason I was a successful Command Master Chief is because on Honor, Integrity and the loyalty of my Sailors.
I was pushed from the deckplates to lead, not from personal desire to standout and be recognized for my own accomplishments. Teams are built and lead by leaders who have integrity and sacrifice their time and sometimes their home life to build their troops and ships up. The only reason I was a successful Command Master Chief is because on Honor, Integrity and the loyalty of my Sailors.
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My integrity and honor is more important then my career. Early in my career there was an incident and i did not want to ruffel feathers. So after that i swore i would never compromise my integrity or honor again at times it made me unpopular with some people but i did not care at the end of the day i can lay my head down and sleep. Now with having a little girl i want to raise her to understand that her integrity and honor are important no matter what is going on good or bad.
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Suspended Profile
I speak my true mind and don't hide behind a mask of political correctness. What I say on here are my true opinions and feelings. I value my integrity and honor more than anything else and that has gotten me in trouble in the past. People has confused my honesty and frankness for being sarcastic.
I'm Autistic (Asperger's Syndrome) and apparently one of the personality traits for that condition is to be brutally honest, not bothering with white lies, and feeling a compulsive need to confess.
I'm even completely open about my condition despite the facts that it paints a big target on my back for MEB/PEB and subject me to people's prejudices about Autistic people.
I'm Autistic (Asperger's Syndrome) and apparently one of the personality traits for that condition is to be brutally honest, not bothering with white lies, and feeling a compulsive need to confess.
I'm even completely open about my condition despite the facts that it paints a big target on my back for MEB/PEB and subject me to people's prejudices about Autistic people.
PO1 Steven Kuhn
@SFC (Servicemember) It has been alleged that autistic people are highly intelligent and highly focused. I too do not have time for lies. A simple lie over a prank played on me got a whole bunch of people in trouble, including me (and I was the victim). After an intense investigation the only person found to be doing tedious (but required) survey work legitimately and as per schedule was me. Yet I got punished for telling the truth. My division officer (who gave me an unlawful order and gave me extra duty for three weeks trying to coerce me into covering things up) got disciplinary actions causing him to be transferred to flight school. I got busted and sent back to the Indian Ocean. All I had to do was lie, and my career would have been a cake walk. I could not do it. Many people have called me stupid, and I guess in some ways I was (and maybe still am). But ever since I was a child, if it came to telling the truth and getting my butt busted or having to live with the lie I chose the truth cause bruises heal but learning to lean on lies is something that just gets worse and worse.......
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“Tiger, one day you will come to a fork in the road and you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go. He raised his hand and pointed. “If you go that way you can be somebody. You will have to make compromises and you will have to turn your back on your friends. But you will be a member of the club and you will get promoted and you will get good assignments.” Then Boyd raised his other hand and pointed in another direction. “Or you can go that way and you can do something- something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. If you decide you want to do something, you may not get promoted and you may not get the good assignments and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors. But you won’t have to compromise yourself. You will be true to your friends and to yourself. And your work might make a difference. To be somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you will have to make a decision. To be or to do? Which way will you go?"
- Col John Boyd
- Col John Boyd
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Without Integrity how can you have honor and without either your career will end in a fashion you that most don't envision.
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