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Posted on Mar 29, 2020
What is the best way to address a toxic leadership environment when it gets so bad that people might start killing themselves?
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If you look at my previous post you will see I’ve had a hard time with toxic leadership in my platoon, not just me but all the junior enlisted. I’m reaching out for help here. Because I know if something doesn’t happen that people are going to start killing them selves. We’ve talked to our first line all the way up to our Chaplin. Nothing changes. Nothing happens. The feeling of being trapped has set in and with being a rotational force in Korea we are quarantined. Our leadership has us stuck in a barrel and do nothing but make our lives miserable. This isn’t the story of a private who thinks he has it bad. There is a real problem, if it’s not taken care of it will eventually lead to horrible circumstances. I don’t know what to do at this point
Toxic Leadership
Stop Soldier Suicide
Suicide
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
If the Company level approach isn't working, then go to BN. If BN isn't working, then you go to BDE. And so on. Also, if you figure out with area the complaints delve into, then file a complaint with your EOA and/or IG office. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row first.
Or...you could just really grab your sack and walk into the Post CSM office, utilizing their open door policy. Again, you BETTER have your ducks in a row.
However, if you feel that people are going to start killing themselves, then there is the Post Chaplain you can contact.
You have avenues to travel down. It's a matter of having evidence, or enough justification to warrant an investigation.
Or...you could just really grab your sack and walk into the Post CSM office, utilizing their open door policy. Again, you BETTER have your ducks in a row.
However, if you feel that people are going to start killing themselves, then there is the Post Chaplain you can contact.
You have avenues to travel down. It's a matter of having evidence, or enough justification to warrant an investigation.
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I agree with SFC Livingston. There are lots of avenues moving up the chain of command, up to and including Division or even the DA level. If the problem is truly pervasive, and other Soldiers in the platoon are willing to come forward, then you can also contact the IG. One thing you might consider is getting sworn statements or MFRs from other members of the platoon. One question: is the problem the PSG, the Platoon Leader, or both? I would start by going to the PSG, 1SG, BN CSM, BDE CSM, and up to Division before I took the nuclear option and went to IG or a Congressman. That's why I recommend written statements from other Soldiers. I had a toxic OIC one time, and all the NCOs would go on and on about how we needed to tell the CSM, but when the CSM called a meeting and asked about it, all the sudden only 2 of us had anything to say. We both ended up in anger management.
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Let me give you my story and then some pointers.
When I first took over as a Platoon Sergeant, a freshly minted E-5, I had no idea what I was doing. My former unit was decommissioned, and I wasn't even trained in the same MOS field as the Marines I was leading. I had no clue. We were also dealing with a severe number of UA cases and a high suicide rate at the time. Just before I took over, a young Marine that had just joined out unit had some serious problems- his wife had left him and taken their kids, he had lost his job, and was forced to live with his parents (reserves if you didn't know). He reached out to his chain of command, his Fireteam Leader didn't answer his calls, his Squad Leader didn't answer his calls, his Platoon Sergeant DID answer his call but then chewed him a new one for bothering him. Eventually the kid packed up his gear, left a note asking his mom to turn it into the unit, and shot himself in the head. The response from his OIC was even more atrocious- he yelled at the whole platoon stating "if you are going to kill yourselves, just do it all at once so I only have to receive ONE email instead of four!" I'm not even joking about that quote, that is a legitimate quote from a Chief Warrant Officer that shall not be named. That was the current state of affairs I found myself in.
How do you get out of it? I can tell you that the road is difficult and it won't happen overnight. But there is a way of fixing it.
1. Lead Up. No one, I hope, is going out there saying "hey, I feel like being a terrible leader today! Let's go ruin some spirits and kill morale!" No, that's not what they think, and you need to intervene at the point of friction. That doesn't mean stepping on your leaders' toes. What it does mean is that if you think there is a legitimate problem, don't stay off to the side and grumble, step up, and be proactive not reactive- tell your non-coms "hey Sarge (nasty Army), let me handle this", or "Sergeant, I got this" rather than waiting for them to make the decision. This isn't a butt-kissing move if you truly feel that lives are on the line and suicide is a legitimate concern. Identify what they want to see, and get it done before they do. Then they will start listening to your concerns.
2. Listen to your fellow Soldiers. If quarantine is an issue, have everyone own it. Install What'sApp. Install Google Meet and host a drinking game or something. Become The Lost Boys (Peter Pan reference, not vampires). Every group of junior Marines has a Rufio. Be Rufio; find something that they all have in common, like a shout, or a phrase, or a symbol that can unite them. Create a symbol they can all get behind, make some platoon shirts, order them, whatever. Make some coins and award them for dumb things, like "To all who shall see these presents, greetings. Know ye, that PFC Benotz has earned this coin for picking up more cigarette butts in the smoking area than ALL other PFCs in the barracks..." Have fun with the situation your in. They are all feeling it too. Stand out and lead them in your way, with your energy. And have FUN with it; the best stories in the military typically come from tough times.
3. Learn the language. Learn how to write and submit awards even just LOAs and CERCOMS, read the "Stand-To!" (Ugh, if there wasn't more reasons to disdain the Army, they could just call it ARMADMINS like the Marines call theirs MARADMINS... Just saying guys c'mon) at https://www.army.mil/standto/archive/ and get familiar with the current events that are going on. Learn how to write a 5-paragraph order. Get familiar with promotion requirements and ensure that those you care for get PME complete, or ever meritoriously ready. Create a book club, here are some ideas of what to read:
-Legacy by J. Kerr
-Leading Up by M. Useem
-Machine, Platform, Crowd by A. McAfee
-A World in Disarray by R. Haass
These are all "Commandant's Choice" books that enhance leadership even though they have little to do with the military specifically. They are sure to look good on a wrap sheet.
Anyways, I hope this all helps. Like I said, I am a reservist, and a teacher at that, so I am stuck home for a hot minute. Happy to chat with you about the specifics of whats going on, and see if I can offer any more advice. Semper Fi.
When I first took over as a Platoon Sergeant, a freshly minted E-5, I had no idea what I was doing. My former unit was decommissioned, and I wasn't even trained in the same MOS field as the Marines I was leading. I had no clue. We were also dealing with a severe number of UA cases and a high suicide rate at the time. Just before I took over, a young Marine that had just joined out unit had some serious problems- his wife had left him and taken their kids, he had lost his job, and was forced to live with his parents (reserves if you didn't know). He reached out to his chain of command, his Fireteam Leader didn't answer his calls, his Squad Leader didn't answer his calls, his Platoon Sergeant DID answer his call but then chewed him a new one for bothering him. Eventually the kid packed up his gear, left a note asking his mom to turn it into the unit, and shot himself in the head. The response from his OIC was even more atrocious- he yelled at the whole platoon stating "if you are going to kill yourselves, just do it all at once so I only have to receive ONE email instead of four!" I'm not even joking about that quote, that is a legitimate quote from a Chief Warrant Officer that shall not be named. That was the current state of affairs I found myself in.
How do you get out of it? I can tell you that the road is difficult and it won't happen overnight. But there is a way of fixing it.
1. Lead Up. No one, I hope, is going out there saying "hey, I feel like being a terrible leader today! Let's go ruin some spirits and kill morale!" No, that's not what they think, and you need to intervene at the point of friction. That doesn't mean stepping on your leaders' toes. What it does mean is that if you think there is a legitimate problem, don't stay off to the side and grumble, step up, and be proactive not reactive- tell your non-coms "hey Sarge (nasty Army), let me handle this", or "Sergeant, I got this" rather than waiting for them to make the decision. This isn't a butt-kissing move if you truly feel that lives are on the line and suicide is a legitimate concern. Identify what they want to see, and get it done before they do. Then they will start listening to your concerns.
2. Listen to your fellow Soldiers. If quarantine is an issue, have everyone own it. Install What'sApp. Install Google Meet and host a drinking game or something. Become The Lost Boys (Peter Pan reference, not vampires). Every group of junior Marines has a Rufio. Be Rufio; find something that they all have in common, like a shout, or a phrase, or a symbol that can unite them. Create a symbol they can all get behind, make some platoon shirts, order them, whatever. Make some coins and award them for dumb things, like "To all who shall see these presents, greetings. Know ye, that PFC Benotz has earned this coin for picking up more cigarette butts in the smoking area than ALL other PFCs in the barracks..." Have fun with the situation your in. They are all feeling it too. Stand out and lead them in your way, with your energy. And have FUN with it; the best stories in the military typically come from tough times.
3. Learn the language. Learn how to write and submit awards even just LOAs and CERCOMS, read the "Stand-To!" (Ugh, if there wasn't more reasons to disdain the Army, they could just call it ARMADMINS like the Marines call theirs MARADMINS... Just saying guys c'mon) at https://www.army.mil/standto/archive/ and get familiar with the current events that are going on. Learn how to write a 5-paragraph order. Get familiar with promotion requirements and ensure that those you care for get PME complete, or ever meritoriously ready. Create a book club, here are some ideas of what to read:
-Legacy by J. Kerr
-Leading Up by M. Useem
-Machine, Platform, Crowd by A. McAfee
-A World in Disarray by R. Haass
These are all "Commandant's Choice" books that enhance leadership even though they have little to do with the military specifically. They are sure to look good on a wrap sheet.
Anyways, I hope this all helps. Like I said, I am a reservist, and a teacher at that, so I am stuck home for a hot minute. Happy to chat with you about the specifics of whats going on, and see if I can offer any more advice. Semper Fi.
STAND-TO! provides the official focus of the US Army.
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SFC Bryan Stetzer
Good advice SSgt. I agree that, generally, people don't go out thinking "I want to be a terrible leader today." However, they can still be terrible, toxic leaders without the excuse of inexperience or ignorance. I had an OIC at one duty station, a Captain. In 20 years in the Army, hands down the WORST officer I ever encountered. He committed, to me, the ultimate sin for a "leader" (I put that in quotes for a reason). He made it personal. By that, I mean that if you were one of his subordinates and got on his sh*t list, he would target you. And it wasn't hard to make the list. All you had to do was disagree with him...once. If you disagreed with him, you were challenging him. He literally tried to have me counseled for talking to my 1SG without going through him first. In what Army does a Senior NCO have to get permission from a Captain to talk to his 1SG? On another occasion, one of my Soldiers committed some minor infraction. Good NCO, so I did a verbal counseling. Later that day he tells me he wants her counseled, and I told him it had already been done. He wanted to see it, so I told him it was a verbal. He then INSISTED that I do a written counseling on her. Well, 1) as her NCOIC, counseling is my call, and I felt I had handled it appropriately, and 2) I'm not going to go back and counsel her again for the same thing. We have rules against that. Long story short, he wrote ME a counseling statement for refusing to write HER one. The punchline is that this guy was a former E-7 who had gotten a commission, so no excuse for bad leadership. Ultimately, he was so concerned about how HE looked and advancing HIS career, that he would step on anyone under him to move up.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Yea, there is a lot of careerism out there. I have seen some officers and SNCOS that insist that everything be in writing in some fashion, but they are usually pretty clear about that early on; it is supposed to be a way of creating a paper trail in the event that negative behaviors continue. In the Marines, we have the NPLOC (Non-Punitive Letter of Correction) which allows the counseling to be in writing without it adversely affecting a Marines record, and does not get filed in their SRB or training jackets in any way. Not sure if there is an Army equivalent to that or not, but if I had been in your position, I would have thrown that in his face and said "it's done".
If its like you are describing though, that probably wouldn't even be enough.
Even still, when I think toxic, I don't even think of folks simply only looking to step on other people, although I'm sure they exist. I have seen some officers humiliated in front of an entire Company during unit PT (like being tasked to perform an obstacle that he struggled with, intentionally, while other most officers and enlisted both were looking on) simply for having that type of attitude. No, when I think of toxic leaders, related to that idea, is when a commander issues a quota. "We need to get at least three Marines NJPed this quarter to show my seniors that I am instilling good order and discipline" or "If we don't have at least three safety violations on this range, my superiors will think that we are not taking unit training seriously."
At that point, it needs to be killed, with hellfire and righteous fury. I would leave anonymous complaints on the Inspector General website and encourage others to do the same. At that point a SgtMaj in DC will just call the Bn SgtMaj directly and straight ask "what the hell is going on down there?" and if it continues to escalate, the IG will fly over there and go through everything with a fine-toothed comb. Officers have a different mindset a lot of the time, because their scope is different, but that doesn't mean they approve of turds rising through their ranks any better than enlisted; nobody likes to see the insubordinate lazy prick get a stripe because he can run fast and shoot well, and there are systems in place to prevent that- if leaders are paying attention that is.
Another part of it is social/emotional (this is where the teacher in me comes out). A lot of senior leaders get burnt out. They get frustrated, disgruntled, maybe the home life is out of wack, etc. Leaders of all ranks should be encouraging and understanding. Self-care is very important especially at higher ranks. Sometimes that studly Sergeant that went out there and got shit done hasn't been groomed for the next rank, never learned to let go and delegate responsibility. So he keeps going out there and getting shit done like he did at the previous rank, except now he has a larger scope, a larger responsibility. No one person can run a unit all on their own, but this guy doesn't know that because he was never instructed properly. That is why retention rates are low. That is what creates toxic leaders, who grind so hard because they were always taught that phases like "I don't know" or "I need help" are taboo. We gotta get rid of that stigma.
If its like you are describing though, that probably wouldn't even be enough.
Even still, when I think toxic, I don't even think of folks simply only looking to step on other people, although I'm sure they exist. I have seen some officers humiliated in front of an entire Company during unit PT (like being tasked to perform an obstacle that he struggled with, intentionally, while other most officers and enlisted both were looking on) simply for having that type of attitude. No, when I think of toxic leaders, related to that idea, is when a commander issues a quota. "We need to get at least three Marines NJPed this quarter to show my seniors that I am instilling good order and discipline" or "If we don't have at least three safety violations on this range, my superiors will think that we are not taking unit training seriously."
At that point, it needs to be killed, with hellfire and righteous fury. I would leave anonymous complaints on the Inspector General website and encourage others to do the same. At that point a SgtMaj in DC will just call the Bn SgtMaj directly and straight ask "what the hell is going on down there?" and if it continues to escalate, the IG will fly over there and go through everything with a fine-toothed comb. Officers have a different mindset a lot of the time, because their scope is different, but that doesn't mean they approve of turds rising through their ranks any better than enlisted; nobody likes to see the insubordinate lazy prick get a stripe because he can run fast and shoot well, and there are systems in place to prevent that- if leaders are paying attention that is.
Another part of it is social/emotional (this is where the teacher in me comes out). A lot of senior leaders get burnt out. They get frustrated, disgruntled, maybe the home life is out of wack, etc. Leaders of all ranks should be encouraging and understanding. Self-care is very important especially at higher ranks. Sometimes that studly Sergeant that went out there and got shit done hasn't been groomed for the next rank, never learned to let go and delegate responsibility. So he keeps going out there and getting shit done like he did at the previous rank, except now he has a larger scope, a larger responsibility. No one person can run a unit all on their own, but this guy doesn't know that because he was never instructed properly. That is why retention rates are low. That is what creates toxic leaders, who grind so hard because they were always taught that phases like "I don't know" or "I need help" are taboo. We gotta get rid of that stigma.
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SFC Bryan Stetzer
SSgt Nagy, I get where you're coming from. In the Army, we didn't have anything like the NPLOC, just the DA4856 Developmental Counseling Form. It's a pretty general purpose form. You use it for Quarterly Counseling, Corrective Counseling, etc etc. Unfortunately, in general, it mostly gets used for Corrective Counseling, so it's generally perceived as negative, even though it isn't. And it does not become part of the permanent record. Once you leave the unit, it goes in the "round file." That being said, the issue in this case was not really the medium (verbal versus written), it was the officer telling me HOW to counsel my Soldier, and then wanting me to go back and counsel them again. This is just one incident with this particular officer. Believe me when I say there were plenty more, and in many cases much more aggregious. For example, I had a Soldier going into outpatient mental health care. This officer demanded to see her treatment plan, which he did not have a right to and in fact would have been a HIPAA violation (he was our OIC, not our company commander). His excuse was he was a PA (not HER PA). When I refused to give it him (since I didn't have it anyway), he gave ME a written counseling.
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If you are truly worried about suicidal ideation within your ranks, you need to run that up the flagpole and keep going until someone listens.
Go to your PSG, 1SG, CSM each on their open door policy. Document in memo form each interaction. Make sure you can articulate in detail what you consider “toxic leadership”. Understand the difference between a gripe and toxic leadership.
If the suspected suicideal behavior is immediate contact your 1SG and Chaplain immediately and tell them exactly why you believe what you believe.
Go to your PSG, 1SG, CSM each on their open door policy. Document in memo form each interaction. Make sure you can articulate in detail what you consider “toxic leadership”. Understand the difference between a gripe and toxic leadership.
If the suspected suicideal behavior is immediate contact your 1SG and Chaplain immediately and tell them exactly why you believe what you believe.
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First, try to directly address it with the offending asshole. It's possible he/she doesn't even know they're an asshole. If that doesn't work, move up. Keep a journal with specific incidents, facts and evidence. Use the chain of coand and don't be afraid. Find other soldiers and NCOs willing to have your back who feel the same way.
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SPC (Join to see), it's one thing to say you have toxic leadership; which might be the God's honest truth or individual opinion; I couldn't possibly know which. But you are waiving a BIG red flag with that statement about suicide. Be extra careful with that. If you or someone you know are actually having such thoughts on a serious level, your first task isn't about the leadership (directly), that can be dealt with later; no, your first task is getting help fast. There are readily available resources in place to try to help soldiers step back who are standing on the precipice and looking down.
If there are those who are genuinely at that point, get that help first.
As for what to do about the leadership potion you are in, after you've taken care of addressing the bigger issue first, read then reread MSG (Join to see)'s post. Maybe give it a 3rd read. Advice doesn't get more practical than that.
If there are those who are genuinely at that point, get that help first.
As for what to do about the leadership potion you are in, after you've taken care of addressing the bigger issue first, read then reread MSG (Join to see)'s post. Maybe give it a 3rd read. Advice doesn't get more practical than that.
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