Posted on Aug 16, 2017
What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?
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Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 244
Around 10 years ago, as a PFC in a HQ, I was selected as a grader. I reiterated to the MSG that I wasn’t a NCO but he said my integrity outweighed my rank and to use that when scoring. Needles to say, a LTC in my line failed pushups. The LTC locked me up and told me I was wrong and to fix it; however, the COL in the line next to him didn’t agree. As a PFC, and still intimidated by any officer, I was slightly confused to see a LTC locked up by a COL. In final formation that day I received a coin from the senior CSM.
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How I see it is like this, if she can’t pass a pt test she shouldn’t be in the army taking up space. If she is ok with falsifying documents then she doesn’t belong anyway because that will just give a bad example to her present and future soldiers that you don’t have to have integrity and you don’t have to work to maintain the basic standards required of all soldiers. I’d say to fix this make her do extra pt till she passes but if she doesn’t start her separation packet. I personally have a hard time completely condemning her because I don’t know the whole situation of what actually happened. Also I find it hard to fully just blame her because I myself have been forced to make false pt score cards but it was for my at the time warrants and the company commander condoned it, so I honestly feel that until leadership stops doing this how can one blame others for following suit. No it’s not right and I think she needs to go but unfortunately more than just this soldier are doing this and it’s usually seniors who do it. I personally think everyone that does this should be put out but how many warrants, officers, and senior NCOs would actually get called to the carpet for doing the same thing?
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Well, I think the most important thing she can do is get in shape and pass the PT test!
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SGT (Join to see)
Incorrect, sir, the most important thing is that E-6 Staff Sergeant Smitty make an example of her, bust her ass down to to E-1, put her on rock painting duty, and then call it leadership.
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Unless the Soldier who took the PT test or the NCO who administered it admits to something, you have nothing to pursue punitive action from a legal point of view. We can speculate all we want, but all the CO can do is require another record PT test. This is why we frequently have Commanders and 1SGs preside and observe record PT tests in a group setting.
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Step 1: remove PT scores from promotion system. Being a PT stud doesnt make you a good leader. Treat Pt as a health and wellnes program and you wont have to worry about ruining careers
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Suspended Profile
This is great but it makes too much sense for the army i absolutely agree with this 100 percent but the leaders and their infinite wisdom would sooner require soldiers to be in full battle rattle for a pt test than do something that would be very beneficial for the army especially those soldiers awesome at their jobs but cant or barely pass pt test
I certainly agree with the bits here about Integrity and Honesty, but we are still a nation of Laws, and the rule is "Innocent until Proven Guilty". Even in the Army, today. How do you know for certain that the score is false? Did she confide in you? How did you find out that the record was falsified? This is more to this story than is being told here. It is actually an easy fix. A Phone call to her former unit, an email to the commander or other such action to verify the results is the best way ahead. If it turns out the record wasn't falsified, promote her. If there is any question, a commanders inquiry may be in order. But even that may be premature. She was Selected, Trained, Educated and was declared eligible by her previous command. It was a "diagnostic" APFT, not a record, so she remains eligible. Even failing an APFT after being promoted is not grounds for delay of promotion or reduction. If her current command continues to delay her Promotion on the grounds of a failed "Diagnostic" APFT, a visit to the IG is in order.
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Sorry, this is extremely poor judgement. She should never have accepted an undeserved score, and now that she is caught out its, how do I fix it time. Here's a couple of leadership principles to pass on, 1). Know yourself, and seek self improvement, "2). Take responsibility for your actions.
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She needs to come clean now. Yeah, she'll probably lose the promotion but if she was in my unit I'd at least gain some respect for her by coming clean sooner rather than later.
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Edit: I posted this before corrections were made to the OP's question so it probably looks out of place. I answered the main question in the comment section of this post.
Rather than ask who's getting the shaft for this, let's run this through the Army's favorite ethical compass; LDRSHIP.
Loyalty- As soldiers, we look out for each-other. Is it looking out for your battle to say they are physically meeting the standard to hold their own in battle if they really aren't?
Duty- It's the duty of Said NCO and Soldier to ensure standards are being met. Is that the case when you falsify records to make it seem like the standard is met when it's not?
Respect- There are people in the unit who passed based off of their own ability. What message does this situation send to others in the unit?
Selfless Service- Again, there are others in the unit, and in the Army as a whole, that met the standard on their own. Is it ok to benefit from falsified records at the expense of your fellow battle buddy?
Honor- Every day, soldiers strive to be a credit to the uniform. Does this sort of behavior enhance the image of the Army, or do our institution injustice?
Integrity- All anybody has in life is their word. How good is the word of somebody who would falsify, or go along with falsifying a career deciding document?
Personal Courage- Part of the Army, let alone life, is being willing to own one's actions and accept the consequences for them. In accepting fabricated results, is this hypothetical soldier doing that?
In my mind, what will happen is an irrelevant question that is up to Commander's discretion. Should this be reported is the question that I'd be asking.
Rather than ask who's getting the shaft for this, let's run this through the Army's favorite ethical compass; LDRSHIP.
Loyalty- As soldiers, we look out for each-other. Is it looking out for your battle to say they are physically meeting the standard to hold their own in battle if they really aren't?
Duty- It's the duty of Said NCO and Soldier to ensure standards are being met. Is that the case when you falsify records to make it seem like the standard is met when it's not?
Respect- There are people in the unit who passed based off of their own ability. What message does this situation send to others in the unit?
Selfless Service- Again, there are others in the unit, and in the Army as a whole, that met the standard on their own. Is it ok to benefit from falsified records at the expense of your fellow battle buddy?
Honor- Every day, soldiers strive to be a credit to the uniform. Does this sort of behavior enhance the image of the Army, or do our institution injustice?
Integrity- All anybody has in life is their word. How good is the word of somebody who would falsify, or go along with falsifying a career deciding document?
Personal Courage- Part of the Army, let alone life, is being willing to own one's actions and accept the consequences for them. In accepting fabricated results, is this hypothetical soldier doing that?
In my mind, what will happen is an irrelevant question that is up to Commander's discretion. Should this be reported is the question that I'd be asking.
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CPL (Join to see)
True but there are many different ways of reporting something's. Should there be steps taken such as refusing the promotion and explaining this is why or should it just be an outright look this is what happened?
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PFC Jonathan Albano
CPL (Join to see) - If said soldier will report it, that would probably be the best possible outcome as it would show an amount of Integrity. Refusing the promotion seems like an irrelevant step as they will, most likely, not get it anyway when the truth comes out. They are going to get in trouble in this scenario- there's just no avoiding that, however, many Commanders will show leniency if the Soldier comes forward on their own volition rather than the Commander hearing from a third party. I will add that the sooner it's said, the better it will look for them.
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CPL,
The bottom line is this; if you can't prove that the score is fake then act under the presumption that it is real. Now, that Soldier needs to be flagged if she fails a Record APFT. I've been in the Army 18 years and the only diags I've ever taken we're at the beginning of an NCOES or similar military school. So I'm unsure as to why she was given a diag. Nonetheless, a record with eventually be given and if she fails then she will be flagged and consequences will occur. But as far as her being promoted in the near future, sounds like it will happen regardless of your efforts or not, Corporal. The very most that could happen would be a Commander's Inquiry on her 300 score if she fails another APFT again. But remember, people get injured and it happens all of the time. I can personally attest to this. While competing for NCO of th quarter I scored a 296 on my first APFT and failed the following APFT due to an injured during the run. This happens. So please don't assume the worst of her. I hope this helps.
The bottom line is this; if you can't prove that the score is fake then act under the presumption that it is real. Now, that Soldier needs to be flagged if she fails a Record APFT. I've been in the Army 18 years and the only diags I've ever taken we're at the beginning of an NCOES or similar military school. So I'm unsure as to why she was given a diag. Nonetheless, a record with eventually be given and if she fails then she will be flagged and consequences will occur. But as far as her being promoted in the near future, sounds like it will happen regardless of your efforts or not, Corporal. The very most that could happen would be a Commander's Inquiry on her 300 score if she fails another APFT again. But remember, people get injured and it happens all of the time. I can personally attest to this. While competing for NCO of th quarter I scored a 296 on my first APFT and failed the following APFT due to an injured during the run. This happens. So please don't assume the worst of her. I hope this helps.
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First off... he was probably balls deep in her- THAT'S his reason.
Secondly... fuck her "career". She got a copy of her APFT prior to PCS (she had daily opportunities to correct it) AND she didn't plan on saying anything until she failed her diagnostic.
Now to the important stuff: I'm going to assume this is your first time playing CYA. Tell the first line supervisor above him (i.e. PSG if he's a squad leader/1SG if it was a PSG), or just go directly to your 1SG. That gets the target off your back if it does come back; which it most likely won't- it's a fucking PT test and command has more important shit to worry about. YOURS will probably shrug it off and say it's the problem of the gaining unit.
Advise she does the same on her end as she's been found out anyway.
Secondly... fuck her "career". She got a copy of her APFT prior to PCS (she had daily opportunities to correct it) AND she didn't plan on saying anything until she failed her diagnostic.
Now to the important stuff: I'm going to assume this is your first time playing CYA. Tell the first line supervisor above him (i.e. PSG if he's a squad leader/1SG if it was a PSG), or just go directly to your 1SG. That gets the target off your back if it does come back; which it most likely won't- it's a fucking PT test and command has more important shit to worry about. YOURS will probably shrug it off and say it's the problem of the gaining unit.
Advise she does the same on her end as she's been found out anyway.
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If you don't possess the integrity to call a foul on yourself when you see something on your record you didn't earn, it is time for you and the organization to part company. it doesn't matter if that organization is a Fortune 500 company or military service. No one, in a leadership position, that does not posses internally the integrity required of the newest recruit, is disqualified from leading in my opinion.
I had to watch 36 out of 40 females in my platoon training at Field Medical Service School cheat on their graded PRT score so they could graduate the school and go on to another duty station. A male that failed that test was retained at the school until one of three things happened. He died. He left the Navy. He actually passed the school. I may be a bit biased here because I am still irritated their service record reflects on paper they achieved the same qualifications I did and they flat out didn't.
Going forward, that individual has to make things right by coming forward with the full, uncompromising truth and deal with the fall out.
I had to watch 36 out of 40 females in my platoon training at Field Medical Service School cheat on their graded PRT score so they could graduate the school and go on to another duty station. A male that failed that test was retained at the school until one of three things happened. He died. He left the Navy. He actually passed the school. I may be a bit biased here because I am still irritated their service record reflects on paper they achieved the same qualifications I did and they flat out didn't.
Going forward, that individual has to make things right by coming forward with the full, uncompromising truth and deal with the fall out.
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I think CW2 (Join to see) and 1SG (Join to see) pretty much covered everything that needs to be said.
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I think she owns this for allowing the 300 to stand. It's basically accessory after the fact.
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SSG Lloyd Price
From the OP's comments, there isn't a "fact" yet. It sounds to me like he is making an assumption and unless she has admitted to being party to a misdeed, an assumption ..... an unfounded assumption, is all he has.
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INTEGRITY MATTERS, SHE WILL BE A SHITTY LEADER IF SHE DOES NOT COME FORTH WITH THE TRUTH. PERIOD!!!!
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Soldiers generally don;t preform very well on PT tests when their ill. I suggest the soldier be given time to recoperate and try the PT test again.
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I'll be blunt here too. I would never want someone of questionable integrity under my command. Period.
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PO1 Aaron Baltosser
That type does have their organizational value for very specific missions...but bear close watching as they are extremely cunning and occasionally deceitful
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