Posted on Aug 16, 2017
What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?
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Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 244
The damage or lack thereof is not your concern. You do what needs to be done and drive on. She knowingly did the wrong thing. Whatever fallout happens, happens. She deserves whatever she gets. You don't cheat on a PT test. You just don't. We work our asses off to earn those scores and it is not fair to get an inflated score simply for doing the wrong thing because at any point your fitness may influence an outcome in the field. Similar to if someone says you can shoot a gun and hit a target and you cannot. If you cannot field strip a weapon and hit the damned target, then you don't get qualified because that would make you a deficit to your team. Protecting someone like that is not in anyone's best interests. She should have thought of the consequences of her actions before the crap hit the fan. SMDH.
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Well that goes against the army values..LDRSHIP.. not to say about the NCO CREED.
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Send her to see a doctor. I'm sure she will likely come up with shin splints during her recovery. She could be given a temp profile which could allow her some time to get back in shape. She is in control of her own destiny, so its all on her to get back to being fit. There are some commands that need to be shaken up so should the ball drop its their own fault. Such a thing shouldn't occur in today's military. There are still waiting lines to get in. A dirtbag is just that, plus a burden on the entire team, especially moral because the word is already out, I guarantee it!
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CPL George S.
This is an integrity issue. Either she should not be an NCO or better. She takes the promotion and embraces her responsibilities. She should be running light poles for 4 miles three days a week and lifting weights 3 days a week. Hopefully she learns pencil wiping readiness and promotable criteria hurt her and her unit. With luck she will not fail her troops the way she has been failed. If she wants to lead she needs to learn to and not be Ms. Nice NCO. Sometimes the best way we can lead is to punch someone in the testicles or breasts, knock them down, then give them a hand up, dust them off and help them in the right direction. Over the long term this will not damage her career no matter how it pans out. Every good SNCO I know and have worked with had NJP as a young soldier.
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Crusty MSGT
This is an integrity issue. Either she should not be an NCO or better. She takes the promotion and embraces her responsibilities. She should be running light poles for 4 miles three days a week and lifting weights 3 days a week. Hopefully she learns pencil wiping readiness and promotable criteria hurt her and her unit. With luck she will not fail her troops the way she has been failed. If she wants to lead she needs to learn to and not be Ms. Nice NCO. Sometimes the best way we can lead is to punch someone in the testicles or breasts, knock them down, then give them a hand up, dust them off and help them in the right direction. Over the long term this will not damage her career no matter how it pans out. Every good SNCO I know and have worked with had NJP as a young soldier.
V/R
Crusty MSGT
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Unless there is absolute proof little can be done. Would be tough to even have changed down. You can not just jam 2 PT tests back to back and then try to kick out. There is absolutley not nearly enough info here to know what action to take. She failed a dio, nit a record. relax.
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SFC Wendell Pruitt
I have been out 25 years but I agree with you 100%, In my day I saw plenty of people with 300 scores when they arrived and watched the majority drop down to 240 to 260 range on the first official one in the new unit. I also saw what I suspected to be pencil whipped results that when questions were asked I was told by higher to get back in my lane it was not my concern unless the troop was directly under me and I had hard fast proof. Personally I believe far to much weight is given to a test that is easily manipulated in multiple ways and at varying levels for a wide variety of reasons
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Take action for what she does as a new leader in a new duty station. Not for what is perceived to have or have not occurred at the previous duty station as apparently there could have been failed leadership as well. Perhaps she thought being a diagnostic she felt she could slack off and fail or maybe she had been drinking and slacked off throughout the transition of duty stations. Too may what ifs here. Without all the facts you can't make an accurate judgment of what actually happened. Yes I know I was only an E4P when I left but I have held leadership and command positions in law enforcement so I do have a little to say on the subject. That is my two cents on the subject.
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What proof do you have. It could have been legit. Without proof or confessing you have nothing to stop it.
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I think the biggest issue is when we see leadership only being graded by certain people. It sets a tone amonth the soldiers. I saw an environment where junior enlisted were called out about PT scores but never heard about the PSG or PL etc. At the end of the day no matter the job you should practice what you preach and if you talk the talk as a leader you better walk the walk. If you aren’t a PT stud then don’t act like your rank allows you to be an a SME about PT. It takes a great leader to know where their shortcomings are.
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SFC Michael Howell
I had a simple policy for many years: I will take an APFT anytime I am asked to do so. I will pass at all times with or without notice. Anyone that desires to grade me is welcome. The APFT standards are simple to understand and they explicitly state that the SM is required to meet them at all times. If you as a Soldier in my platoon want me to take PT test we can take one together.
I don't understand all of the complaints about no time to prepare or not enough notice. You were put on notice the day you started basic training that you are required to meet APFT standards.
I don't understand all of the complaints about no time to prepare or not enough notice. You were put on notice the day you started basic training that you are required to meet APFT standards.
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The bottom line is there is a standard and it obviously was not met. If there are questions regarding the standard, one need only consult their HCoC or the proper regulations.
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You'll have to appeal to her to do the right thing and have it reassessed. We're not talking about a few points here ; the score is too high ( perfect ) vs actual failing . THAT is no minor discrepancy and it matters especially in the field . Your English is excellent btw , you must be a smart, hard working soldier , we need more bilingual folks .
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There is an old saying that fits what I have perfectly; Honestly is the best policy,
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Regardless of the reason, that previous PT Test was pencil-whipped. If she knew about this, she, and that NCO who fudged the score are FUCKED!!!! The only way I see this NOT being pursued, and since you said this was a diagnostic, is she takes another PT test and passes it. If she fails THAT ONE, BOTH OF THEM ARE FUCKED!!!
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The OP is not clear on how it's "known" that the soldier's previous PT test was falsified. As I said earlier, it's either known, or it's suspected and this young leader, a CPL, (over a newly promoted Sergeant?, not sure how that works) Should deal with what is in front of himself, and not on suspicions. This soldier failed an APFT, deal with that. If the soldier admitted to the falsified PT Test, deal with that.
If the OP is making an assumption of wrong-doing then he is making a terrible mistake. There are many reasons a soldier can have a bad PT Test. All of you senior leaders should have recognized this problem yet few have. I commend those who are thinking right, and although I do not challenge the ethics of you others, I will throw down my BS card on your ill-considered rush to urge an inquisition without specific proof of wrong-doing. Which one of you are going to ask "How specifically, do you know the PT Test was falsified?"
If the OP is making an assumption of wrong-doing then he is making a terrible mistake. There are many reasons a soldier can have a bad PT Test. All of you senior leaders should have recognized this problem yet few have. I commend those who are thinking right, and although I do not challenge the ethics of you others, I will throw down my BS card on your ill-considered rush to urge an inquisition without specific proof of wrong-doing. Which one of you are going to ask "How specifically, do you know the PT Test was falsified?"
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If there was suspicion before she pcs’s, it should have been dealt with then. Now that she has moved on, she can either try to hide behind the lie(which will eventually come to light) or she can fess up now and deal with the consequences. I honestly have no respect for Soldiers who will do thing in their own best interest and are not what we need leading troops, either in garrison or deployments.
If her immediate supervisors knew their Soldier, they would have notice the discrepancy after the 300 and addressed it with the Soldier along with the chain of command. I feel this goes a little deeper than one Soldier.
If her immediate supervisors knew their Soldier, they would have notice the discrepancy after the 300 and addressed it with the Soldier along with the chain of command. I feel this goes a little deeper than one Soldier.
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The violation of the UCMJ is “False Official Statement” and Art. 134 “Conduct contrary to the Good Order & Discipline of the Armed Forces”.
This unqualified service member is preventing another qualified member from promotions and assignments of greater responsibility and leadership.
Discharge the miscreant.
This unqualified service member is preventing another qualified member from promotions and assignments of greater responsibility and leadership.
Discharge the miscreant.
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I was told by a commander once to not come to the table without some sort of solution to the problem. First of all, an NCO should be forthcoming. If you let a problem be, it only gets bigger. She should at least say what happened, and be willing to take another PT test on the spot. And seriously, don't make a mountain out of a diagnostic, you can take several of those in any given year. So tell her to be honest, and be willing to take another. If she loses rank, she still has integrity. Integrity and honesty will guide her right back to being an NCO.
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She just needs to buckle down, get back in the groove and pass the test and accept the promotion. She'll go nowhere until she passed. That NCO did her no favor by falseling the report
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iF THE PT SCORE WAS A FRAUD THEN THERE ARE TWO INDIVIDUALS THAT COMMITTED THIS FRAUD. IF THE PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN NOTE WORTHY AND GOOD A POSSIBLE DO OVER TO THE PT AND DEMOTION. FRAUD IS NOT TOLERATED IN THE MILITARY, IF YOU WOULD LIE ABOUT ONE THING WHAT ELSE ARE YOU CAPABLE OF BEING DECEPTIVE ABOUT AND HOW FAR ARE YOU WILLING TO GO WITH THIS DECEPTION. TRUTH HONOR COURAGE DEDICATION. THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE WITHIN A SOLDIER NO MATTER WHAT BRANCH THEY SERVE. THE CHAIN OF COMMAND NEEDS TO BE INVOLVED FOR THIS REASON IT IS THE DUTY OF ALL IN THE CHAIN TO REPORT INCIDENTS. AND ANY ALONG THAT CHAIN CAN SAY YEA OR NAY.
I AM 72 NOW AND THIS IS STILL MY MILITARY ALSO. REMEMBER WE WERE OR STILL ARE ( GI"S) GENERAL ISSUE RUES AND TRUST ARE WHAT MAKE A UNIT GREAT, AND IT ALL STARTS WITH AN INDIVIDUAL.
ET PO2, MR3 CMBT ENG, SGT, PATHFINDER
JUST MY OPINION
I AM 72 NOW AND THIS IS STILL MY MILITARY ALSO. REMEMBER WE WERE OR STILL ARE ( GI"S) GENERAL ISSUE RUES AND TRUST ARE WHAT MAKE A UNIT GREAT, AND IT ALL STARTS WITH AN INDIVIDUAL.
ET PO2, MR3 CMBT ENG, SGT, PATHFINDER
JUST MY OPINION
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