Posted on Aug 16, 2017
What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?
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Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 244
I have been out over 25 years but I can say this without any question in my mind, The APFT has and likely always will be an area where far to many get pencil whipped outcomes, I understand the importance of Physical fitness, I also understand testing to a set standard on a regular basis, I don't however see the point in all of the other testing that used to go on regularly. I recall one period in my own service where I did 5 PT tests in 11 months, One before My PCS, One shortly after arrival with minimal time to adjust to the new location, Another prior to attending an NCO Academy, another because the New Battalion Commander wanted 100% of the unit tested within 30 days and the last because He didn't like the results of the previous one. I passed each one but by the time the last one rolled around I was over taking PT tests and my score reflected a minimal effort and from that point on its all I gave for the rest of my time in that Command. I have always believed the test fails to give a true picture of soldier readiness, I have always felt it is over emphasized in its importance and is used as a weapon against some, by people in positions of power.
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If this Soldier has done well in every area, then this PT score should not hinder a promotion. Yes fitness, is part of readiness, but when it comes to promotions, it would depend on what exactly will she be doing in her career. If she is not in a combat unit, and or a unit, that needs very physically fit, soldiers, then a curve should be applied, not only to her, but to anyone. I remember, those PT tests, I hated the 2 mile run, which the NCO in charge, was so adamant about. well I could barely breath through my nose due to nasal polyps and an inherited screwed up, ears, nose and throat, compounded by major Hearing loss.Somedays, I could do that run easily and always felt good for beating the clock. On other days, my allergies, polyps, would just hinder my running, and I would come in 5 to 10 seconds off the required time. Physical training is important, but sometimes, mother Nature plays her Joke on you.I say promote her, she obviously has much potential. one other thing, when you are but a mere 19 year old soldier, who raises his hand for a 50 mile walk through the alps in two days( I must have dropped a crazy pill), has got to have some kahunas, well I went to Switzerland to Bern for a 25 mile walk the first day, and when I woke up for the second day, I could barely walk, the blisters from a grueling route through those mountains. I willed myself back into my fatigues, and combat boots, and limped to the starting line for the next 25 miles would tell a story of endurance and not sweating the Pain, that obviously every one had, well even though we were hurting, when we approached the finish line ,and the crowds cheering us on, we went for it, and marched down the BLVD. like it was graduation day, even doing an eyes right. A great feeling to accomplish what was then a difficult test of how well your training was, and if you could keep up. (the colonel fell out, and when were all returned to our garrison, the colonel gave a speech), yes he admitted that he fell out, and to the men who continued the hike, and finished. No PT test that year, the colonel says a PT test is not anything to compare with a 50 mile volksmarch in big mountains area. as for me, Anything to get out of that darn two mile run....Army sure did challenge you almost everyday.
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CPL Santos, first of all, how do you know her APFT was falsified? if you do not have proof, do not entertain rumors, if you do report it to your PSG. Now, all Soldiers will receive an APFT upon arrival at any unit, if the Soldier fails, then he/she will be a flag. If she is promotable she can very well lose her promotable status. Your question is what to do in order not to affect her career? Her career is already affected, any 1SG will see the big difference between a 300 APFT score and a barely passing or even failing. A 300 APFT Soldier on his/her worst day will pass the APFT. Bottom line there is no room for an NCO that do not have any integrity at all.
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Granted, this was a year ago but... If no one can prove she falsified (or knew it was falsified) the first PT test score then it's hard to prove anything without a witness. You say she was given a false 300 APFT score - based on what? Are you a witness? How do you know this? Does she know it's not the right score or are people assuming this? How do you know she knows? Is this just an assumption because she failed the following diagnostic? Why did she fail the diagnostic? Was she sick or injured? Maybe there's a reason she failed it. Maybe she did score a 300 initially. Seems like some are jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts OR they have not all been expressed here. There are many more questions that need to be asked here.
If what you are saying is accurate she should have immediately come forward and stated there was a mistake on her initial PT test. If you know this is the accurate version then you should have reported it up your CoC.
If what you are saying is accurate she should have immediately come forward and stated there was a mistake on her initial PT test. If you know this is the accurate version then you should have reported it up your CoC.
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Remember you are not there one whom is affecting her career. If you have substantial proof that she gundecked her score then come forward and be a leader.
She affected her own score and career. She made her bed and now she has to deal with it. She messed up.
Part of being a good leader is doing the right thing even if it isn't popular. What about the soldier who is behind her and didn't make rank because she is picked. Is that fair,
I fully understand the complexity of the physical readiness test. In fact, I got out of the Navy as an E6 with 4 years left to retire. Why?I wasn't able to meet the standard in the run portion of the PRT. I tried but I could not keep a pace. I don't blame anyone about it. My leadership had to do what they had to do and deny my last reenlistment. I hold no bad feelings and have respect for them.
I didn't cheat I took it like a grown-ass woman. I feel better because I didn't cheat the system.
You have a duty and obligation to report it. Whatever happens will happen. You also have to CYA, if it ever comes back on you that you knew and did nothing... Then it will look like you helped her cheat too
It's a lot to think about.
She affected her own score and career. She made her bed and now she has to deal with it. She messed up.
Part of being a good leader is doing the right thing even if it isn't popular. What about the soldier who is behind her and didn't make rank because she is picked. Is that fair,
I fully understand the complexity of the physical readiness test. In fact, I got out of the Navy as an E6 with 4 years left to retire. Why?I wasn't able to meet the standard in the run portion of the PRT. I tried but I could not keep a pace. I don't blame anyone about it. My leadership had to do what they had to do and deny my last reenlistment. I hold no bad feelings and have respect for them.
I didn't cheat I took it like a grown-ass woman. I feel better because I didn't cheat the system.
You have a duty and obligation to report it. Whatever happens will happen. You also have to CYA, if it ever comes back on you that you knew and did nothing... Then it will look like you helped her cheat too
It's a lot to think about.
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I see all of these comments and can just about bet some of you have hooked your buddy up at some point in your careers or had someone give you a few more sit ups or push-ups than you did to better your score. GIve me a break!!
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SSG Jeffrey Harper
2LT Brian L. Answer me this, judging by your comment, is it or is it not cheating by allowing a few shitty push ups? Yes so the same way this NCO PT Test was done wrong, everyone NCO at some point has done it.
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2LT Brian L.
Have they? I don't believe that's a blanket truth. I do agree with you that the new unit should immediately administer a fresh APFT on her arrival and given new look. But do you expect me to believe she went from a 300 to a failing score? Honestly I do not care about her condition outside of work... with that being said I do believe that her COC could delay the test if circumstances called for it. Yeah flag her and move on with or without her if she isn't willing to maintain a fit to fight physical condition. NCOER's are often more subjective and if they can be explained in an understandable manner well then.... but even then its a bad look. 300 to failing naw
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SSG Jeffrey Harper
2LT Brian L. she could’ve had a serious life even event that happen to her and therefore she wasn’t prepared for the APFT. Not to when you say fail. You could in any number of ways. Weight, not getting 60 in one event etc. I new a guy that scored a 255 on the PT test and failed it. 100 on PU, 100 Sit UPs but failed the run and passed the tape. So yes it’s very easy to fail a PPT Test from Scoring 300 before.
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2LT Brian L.
Not very typical though.... and I am familiar with how its scored and AR 600-9. I just don't think it pans out... she sucked at PT at her her old unit most likely and now there is no one there to hide it... sorry but that's my gut feelings... and for real she is a Soldier and should be able to pass an APFT at any moment ( see I said pass and not max like her previous score said).. again I don't really care about her hypothetical serious life events... she chose the job the job did not chose her and the job requires a set standard of physical conditioning that she should be in.. if it was so serious then her chain of command should have been tracking and assessed weather or not they could post pone the APFT that much I will waiver on
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My PSGT in Iraq, 2005, signed off on a PT card for a 300 that never happened. Scored him a trial by Courts Martial and a promotion from SFC to SSG. Her conduct scored her a promotion as well.
It should be obvious if the card was pencil whipped. Sounds like a retest is in order. The NCO needs to be dealt with.
It should be obvious if the card was pencil whipped. Sounds like a retest is in order. The NCO needs to be dealt with.
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CW4 Craig Urban
That is serious stuff. On a numerous note I maxed 29/30 pt tests. My first bn CDR at Schinnen the Netherlands on my in brief asked if I could play racquetball since a new fitness center was being opened in two months. I said a little. I was a army level player previously in Germany and DC. I was training at Geilenkirchen ab where they had courts and took up squash. Time for the center to open and I say LTC Moffet let's test out the courts. So at 2 pm when all the soldiers are back to work we play. 6 games and he is sweating bullets and maybe gets 3 points. A little bit chief? I say sir I am army level. So type up a exception to policy if doing pt with the soldiers. He signs it. That went fine through 3 bn cdr's. The last one questioned me one day and said why are you never at pt? I said I have an exception to policy. Check your files. He did and sure as hell there the document signed by Moffett. He says get out of my office with a smile.
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This is very important, you either have proof or an admission, or you only have a suspicion. The Soldier's current performance is of issue hear, don't fall into a trap. A leader's life is hard enough just dealing with the immediate and the future, don't make the mistake of assuming that this soldier and another NCO are both complicit in a fabrication when there are easily other explanations. Could your Soldier be dealing with issues and she just let herself go? How old was the previous PT test, how conducive has her environment been to support quality PT. It's much easier to loose than to gain. But most importantly, think of the damage to the soldier if your suspicion is wrong. You have proof or you don't, make a decision and deal with what's in front of you, You won't be wrong.
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During my time in the Army, for a Corporal to question a higher ranked NCO was a bit of an issue. From your information, you've no idea if her PT test was modified for her promotion or not, maybe it was. But why are YOU questioning it? Are you upset that someone other than you is being promoted? Why aren't you, as an E4, being promoted to E5? If you are in her chain of concern, why would an E4P be under you? Having a PT test modified for advancement is a pretty serious charge. Defiantly violates the regs and falls under UCMJ. Your concern for her "military career" is um... admirable... but to be honest, if you were really concerned about her, you wouldn't be posting her business on here.
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