Posted on Oct 23, 2015
SSG Timothy Sharpe
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What is it that the cadre and policy makers in NCOES schools think they are accomplishing by suppressing 240 years of culture. Secondly, I don't know of anyone who after the school was like "oh I better not cuss now I'm a warrior leader"
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1SG Robert Bodeman
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Edited >1 y ago
ok enough with bashing NCO schools !!! FIRST // the NO CURSING rule in ANY military schools has been established back when they first started the NCO ACADEMY. The MAIN reason is PROFESSIONALLISM, RESPECT, HONOR, and CHARACTER - - if TRNG SENIOR SGTs were CURSING at you for everything, you would feel disrespected and in some cases soldiers would fail, or have no reason to continue, BUT to keep up HONOR is to treat, speak without cursing would build your character in a RESPECTFUL way. SECOND // when you are in charge of a group of soldiers, it would be nice to hear SGT's speak with out cursing to get his point across, thats the challenge, your SQUAD or PLATOON RESPECTING you because you do not curse at them, you speak with HONOR, you show them you've been educated by the BEST, you follow the NCO CREED, you want your men and women to follow you, you want them to RESPECT you, you want them to SPEAK highly of you, not belittle you behind your back, then other NCOs hear it and now your screwed, can not fix it, except transfer and start over, THIRD // as CSM AYALA taught me, EDUCATION is the key to success, how you use it will make you or break you, PROFANITY has no room in my brain, but RESPECT, HONOR, DUTY, as an NCO growing to be the ARMY's finest, you have a DUTY to your men and women to treat them fairly with respect FOURTH // YOUR MEN AND WOMEN IS THE EXTENSION OF YOU, HOW THEY BEHAVE, TALK, AND ACT IS HOW YOU TREAT THEM
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CSM Troy McGilvray
CSM Troy McGilvray
>1 y
I don't know when the NCO Academys were started. I attended the NCO Academy at Ft. Hood in about 1959 or 1960. Even then we were taught that effective leaders did not need to use profanity when leading troops, so I never used it in my 26+ years. It wasn't necessary. I had the respect of the officers and troops in both my battalions I served as CSM. I also served on the brigade as well as division staffs.....no profanity was needed.
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CPL Glenn Cariaga
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I think it shows discipline. The ability to turn cussing on or off is an outward sign of the inward ability for any soldier to turn a habit into a conscious decision. We talk all time about "channeling our emotions." As professionals, one cannot be making life/death decisions based purely on emotions. If one cannot control one's speech in a controlled, how much more difficult would it be to keep it together in more stressful situations?
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SGT Transportation Management Coordinator
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There is no need for it. I don't cuss around my kids so there is no need to cuss around people. In combat or not.
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COL John Power
COL John Power
>1 y
Well said and simply said. No muss; no fuss. I'm pleased so many at all levels have a clear understanding of why the profligate use of profanity is just a bad leadership practice. Believe it or not there are soldiers that are uncomfortable and offended by such language. You aren't impressing them; you are turning them off. If you don't understand that it is time you woke up.
Great answer, SGT Antoine!
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CSM Troy McGilvray
CSM Troy McGilvray
>1 y
I agree with you, COL!
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SGT Transportation Management Coordinator
SGT (Join to see)
>1 y
COL John Power - Thank you sir.
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CW3 Jim Norris
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To paraphrase a noted author, 'profanity is a vain attempt by a weak mind to express itself forcefully'. The unfortunate truth is that profanity no longer has any impact on the response of others because it is so common place and used for no reason. In former days the utterance of profanity by a leader was reserved for an appropriate place, time and circumstance - and they very seldom occurred, so the led understood clearly the urgency that was being expressed. Today the rampant use of profane language has not only weakened the leadership position of the one using it, it has dulled the senses of those to whom it is directed. Make no mistake, I have used profane language in combat situations, often under my breath as a release mechanism for my own foreboding. However I found the greatest impact upon my platoon was to see me in apparent calm instructing and guiding their actions. You will find that cool waters temper steel, and that includes the backbones of others. Calm yourself, express the needed orders, in clear, concise and unambiguous voice and you will become that leader that your soldiers will respect and look to in times of greatest stress. A great example is the found in the movie We where solider once and young, recounting the Battle of Ia Drangin Vietnam. According to the actual commander on the ground there, the movie accurately portrays the Sergeant Major's demeanor during combat. I recommend strongly that you watch this man's portrayal and it's effect upon those about him.
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SPC William Weedman
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I always figured it was attention to detail, not unlike which way one's boots were laced, as I understand it swapped each day (left lace over right lace and vice versa). It is also easier to understand an instructor if you don't have to wade through language that is unneeded for instruction. When I was in the NG during a local snow emergency, the only soldier who was able to access our armory during the first hours was our full-time motor sergeant. A friend and I were about to fall out of our chairs watching him attempt to address the reporters without his "normal" foul language spilling out. He was eventually saved by another soldier who was able to allow him to first do his job and do it with his usual colorful language.
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SSG Mannix Brooks
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The purpose is to reflect changes made in the military structure with women being allowed in combat jobs, people being allowed to serve openly regardless of gender preference and with the kids
being recruited today as in if there is no direct rule against doing something they will exploit is to the maximum. I was a tanker before I moved over to Signal when I was in the military so I had to make a change to the frequency of use, times, volume and places where I used profanity or I would not have made it, same thing applies to the current situation for everyone else now.
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SSG Audwin Scott
SSG Audwin Scott
>1 y
SSG Brooks, you know as well as I do some females can cuss just as well as a male soldier.. I tried not to cuss as much but we will see how long this last.
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SSG Mannix Brooks
SSG Mannix Brooks
>1 y
I really think this is just part of downsizing. When you trim the fat and there is none left making distinctions between who should stay or go becomes that much harder so it is coming down to either upsetting people enough they get out on their own or holding them accountable for the violating the next new rule that gets dreamed up and this is just the start.
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SFC Mark Bailey
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The use of profanity when giving orders, especially when time is critical and the situation is not one where you can use as many words as I am doing now can not be understated.

If one of my Infantry soldiers would have had a problem with me yelling "Move your ASS DAMMIT...!!!", I personally think the rest of the Platoon would have given him 'noogies' for weeks afterwards. To me, it was a Brevity Code that carried as much weight as the rest of the sentence I was screaming out.

For WLC (PLDC) to waste even a moment of their valuable time in attempting to change this very basic part of human nature is not only a travesty, but a complete waste of the allocated training time that could have been better used to reinforce values such as Honor, Self-Sacrifice, and Personal Standards being set so that junior enlisted can take heed and take heart.

My soldiers always came first, and they knew that
The lives and the welfare of my troops was of paramount importance, and followed in the tradition of "Mission FIRST, People ALWAYS". Which is a mis-nomer and actually if read and understood means you have ALREADY taken care of your soldiers before the Mission was ever assigned.

My only words for the Politically Correct (yet completed misguided) Leader that signed off on this monumental waste of time in the building block school of NCO culture?

STOP PISSING AWAY DAYLIGHT, and Move your ASS DAMMIT...!!!!
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SFC David Pope, MBA
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"Profanity is a sign of a week mind trying to sound intelligent, but failing miserably in the process." -Gordon B. Hinkley. I work in the reinforcing steel industry, and iron workers could make a sailor cry with how much they drop the f-bomb. I have been working on my boss for a few years training him to not swear continually as we meet new clients. As VP of Operations I can get away with criticizing him. He is getting better, he is down to 8 f-bombs per conversation!
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SSG Katherine Likely
SSG Katherine Likely
>1 y
I can stand some cussing but the F bomb loaded conversation I could not and would have no problem letting him know in words he could clearly understand.
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COL John Power
COL John Power
8 y
When I was a teenager I probably used every word known at the time. As I grew older (and I hope wiser) I ceased that behavior. Today it is extremely rare and if I were subjected to participation in an F-bomb laden conversation I would cringe and excuse myself. Later I would explain it in no uncertain terms, even to a boss. I love having the freedom to do that; others probably don't and that is too bad. I consider profanity-laced berating of someone a form of harassment.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
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When I went "Grass to Brass", the Commandant of OCS at the time allowed no profanity. It didn't seem to slow him down at all when it came to chewing butt. I've seen and been on the receiving end of a couple that were masterful but non profane. I admired him for it.

I didn't always follow his example in my career.
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SSG Air Movement Coordinator
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In all honesty as professionals we shouldn't be cursing any ways. I try to keep my sentence enhancers to myself. We all know their is a time and place to set your hat down and let it fly.
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SGT Bryan O'Reilly
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Edited >1 y ago
I would echo what the rest of the guys say. Profanity is just excess verbiage and it can muddle your commands I want a block of instruction delivered as quickly and concisely as possible. especially during a fire mission because lives depend on it. It also makes me seem less in control if I am always cussing at my people. I am in the habit of confirming every instruction I give. I give a guy an instruction, ask if they understand and then have them repeat it back to me. This is a great tool for ensuring your people understand you the first time.
I never argue For the same reason. Control. NCO's who routinely argue with pvts have no business in command.
I also kept a bucket and a scrub brush on my desk, symbols of how you would spend your spare time scrubbing 5 ton trucks if you want to be a hardcase
Like it ior not part of our job is politics. That means we have a side that staff sees and a side our battles see. I want my command to know I am in control and not a hot head. Screaming at people unnecessarily is for illiterate weaklings IMO
I can dress someone down pretty quick without ever swearing, but there is a time when it is appropriate. And that's when it needs to carry power. Use your best judgement sarge, But I like to praise my people as much as possible, cause heaven help them when they do get me cussing
Your pal,
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CW3 Vernon Messer
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Sergeant, you identify a problem that started on the college campus where campus thought and speech police reign supreme. By forcing females into Infantry, Rangers, Special Forces in an effort to eventually get a female Combatant 4 star Commander and/or a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the cultures of these units and organization will be forced to change their modes of operation. This will be the cost of doing business. Also, there is a parallel progressive effort to generally neuter the male in our society. Look at TV commercials, magazine ads, et al. The US male is always the dummy, the weak kneed idiot, or the fall guy. Welcome to the world of political correctness...and it's coming from the top.
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SSG Katherine Likely
SSG Katherine Likely
>1 y
"By forcing females into Infantry, Rangers, Special Forces ........" Excuse me, she said with as much composure as possible - sir I feel you are rated for a cuss put down - but I'll try to be a lady about it and say, "You stink."
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CW3 David Covey
CW3 David Covey
8 y
Facts hurt sometimes, SSG.
I have no problems with females doing anything they are capable of doing as long as the standards are met and not changed to allow for those who are not capable. If being an artilleryman requires the loader to hump 100 lb shells for 30 minutes straight is the standard, then in order to allow a female into the MOS the standard is changed to 50lb rounds, obviously the standard has been changed for the purpose of putting her there.
I think your attitude is misplaced about females and their capabilities, especially in combat arms, special forces.
As Clint Eastwood once said, Ya gotta know your limitations.
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SGT Tim Fridley
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I have used some colorful language in my day but no need for it when instructing troops or giving briefings ect. That is counter productive
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CPL Richard Flagg
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When I went to PLDC now WLC in 90' at Fort Sill's NCO Academy; I remained professional and all that til that REMF fhrew the PRC-77 off his for being "Too Heavy." Then I just had to lay into his weak ass for potentially breaking our commo. The instructors laughed and chuckled at my On The Spot Correction.

It's too bad that times have changed since the PC Sensitivity Police have taken over. Come on our jobs are to kill the enemy not take him out for coffee at the local Starbucks or coffee shop.
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CPL Glenn Cariaga
CPL Glenn Cariaga
>1 y
sorry, but the army's mission is changing. the army is being used for policing and for COIN operations. that means taking out the enemy to the local chai shop.
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SGT Scott Henderson
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Probably something to do with "being professional". Personally, I don't think anything motivates soldiers in training better than "MOVE YOUR FUCKING ASS!!!!"
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1SG Patrick McKelvey
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Edited >1 y ago
Good grief people! Are you seriously this wrapped up in verbiage that the term "Profession of Arms" means that my language can create such an intolerable environs that you are non mission capable? It's very strange to me as I prepare to retire that we are so enamored of the linguistics of professionalism that oft times we are forced to forego actual training in the profession of finding, fixing, closing with, engaging, and destroying an enemy (much less the intricacies of COIN which is or should have been our bread and butter for the last 10 years but alas that is another topic altogether) the ARMS part people. . Several millennia ago I was in a course where we had "senior Students" as peer instructors and one of them overheard me use the dreaded F-bomb. She proceeded to lambast me for the better part of 10 minutes on how unprofessional I was and how in her estimation I would be a danger as a soldier and a disaster as a leader because "Profanity is a weak mind expressing itself." That resonated with me because a) it was a rather pithy remark and b) my original statement was " who the f#@k taught you to set this claymore up so you can read it from your foxhole?!" My point here ladies and gentlemen is there is a place for everything and right now after 13 years of combat and an ongoing and apparently never ending battle with limited training dollars, soldiers who cannot come into compliance, leaders who are suffering paralysis thru analysis and an ever expanding administrative choke hold on our training hours it's my F#@KING language that is at issue here?
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COL John Hudson
COL John Hudson
>1 y
I don't have a problem with the idea there's a time and place for everything. Out in the Field is one thing, bringing the Field into a mixed gender professional setting is another. I do have a problem with those who can't tell the difference and conduct themselves accordingly. So does UCMJ.
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SSG Katherine Likely
SSG Katherine Likely
>1 y
when i was younger and in the field i had a "potty mouth" according to my mom. But, as i got older and wiser i learned other words that could equal the same thing but not be offensive.
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1SG Patrick McKelvey
1SG Patrick McKelvey
>1 y
Apologies, perhaps some of you did not or cannot see the frame of reference in my vignette nor the overarching theme in my message due to a tunnel vision on "professional language" discourse. Perhaps I should clarify... I have a foul mouth. That is to say, I have a disproportionate use of verbiage that my Grandmother would have been forced to take unbridled umbrage over should I speak that way at the Family Sunday dinner table, and in that environment that punctuative language would have been unnecessary and counter productive. That said, my grandmother would NEVER have been stupid enough to TEACH someone to emplace a Claymore mine with the words FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY facing towards themselves. And should she have made such an error she would not have hidden her NEGLIGENCE behind the bullshit of a diatribe on how language is more important than ACTIONS. I may not speak "professionally" at all times but I damn sure carry my responsibility for teaching, training, molding, and mentoring those soldiers around me to the standards that will keep them alive and accomplish missions like millstone around my neck. And I will not now nor ever apologize for asking an NCO or Officer what the FUCK they are doing training soldiers like that. I stand by my product and that is competent trained soldiers of any rank and any MOS that I have worked with or for, I have been a trainer for 20 years and I stand by the philosophy of its not the language its the message and the RESULTS. Besides, I overhead a SSG say recently, " oh hell, Top is pissed. You can tell 'cuz he's all quiet and shit." Great news for me, she gets it and I now have a subordinate who is going to correct the deficiency without me uttering a word offensively peppered with profanity or not.
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1SG Patrick McKelvey
1SG Patrick McKelvey
>1 y
1LT James Clarke - 1LT For The Record: I was neither inner city ( more Country club and prep school) nor country boy ( Ft Hood broke me of that however, due to the unavoidable excess of Country Music for which I have acquired a taste for) , and I did drop out of college to join the Infantry. Best decision ever!
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SFC Rodrick Carter
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Well first off, using profanity is totally unprofessional. Even though profanity is used by the majority of people in uniform, it doesn't mean it needs to be used in NCOES or any other professional setting. The first line of the NCO Creed is "No one is more professional than I." That should sum it up for you right there.
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CPL Terry Whalen
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If a person in a leadership position feels the need to swear in order to solicite a proper response form a fellow soldier than they need to become a better leader, because they are lacking the proper skills necessary. It's shows a complete lack of respect and gentleman qualities that is sorely lacking in today's leaders and that goes from the top down. Whatever happened to decency and professionalism.
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1LT John Unden
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I have to agree with you Sharpie. We need more action and to stop making useless rules. Officers are supposed to be gentlemen, so I can see us pulling back on our own vocab (a little) for the public eye and to set a better example, but Enlisted and NCOs need to be able to do what it takes to get the job done and get the message across. I used to be enlisted and an NCO so I've seen, given, and taken from all sides. We are all in the business of winning wars, not sending people to the middle school principal's office.
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PFC Janice Mayer
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First sentence of the NCO creed. NO ONE IS MORE PROFESSIONAL THAN I. Last sentence of the NCO creed. I WILL NOT FORGET, NOR WILL I ALLOW MY COMRADES TO FORGET THAT WE ARE PROFESSIONALS, NON-COMMISIONED OFFICERS, LEADERS! Cursing is not necessary to convey a message. As soldier we -mostly-all curse, but, you are no longer an ordinary soldier, you are now a leader, role model, and mentor of others. Be the professional that you have earned the right to be. And don't give me that "I'm infantry, I'm combat arms crap- (I can curse with the best of them), I don't need you to say the F-bomb to know I have to do the job you say.
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