Posted on May 30, 2018
What is the recommended punishment for a soldier who is FTR while on Extra Duty?
46.2K
69
34
7
7
0
Need help on the matter, SM gets a summarized art 15 for being FTR, 14 days extra duty, last day of his ED he is late to his timeline and misses movement to his Extra Duty location, I counsel him recommending him for a Field Grade for being FTR once again and I also counseled him on a emotional/spiritual level , trying to figure out the root of the problem. My Platoon SGT comes back to me and voices a concern, that the recommended punishment is too harsh and does not fit the crime , he wants me to do something lesser or something like a trial period , I cant find any regulation on the matter and I want to make sure that whatever I type its legal and legit, not something made up. Where should I be looking into? AR 27-10 is not helping me or maybe I'm reading over something.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 16
I would not jump from a summarized AR15 to a FG, summary is a non punitive corrective action. If he warrants and AR15 then my recommendation would be a Company Grade. First find out why the Soldier missed his duty call. If there are circumstances that would otherwise call for a staunch conversation or a written counseling then why not do that. The whole reason we have corrective processes in the military is to acknowledge issue for correcting and take action. To compound punishment over different issues, particularly those that may have contributing factors is not what it is all about. Do the crime, do the time! A FG is a show stopper for a Soldier, be sure that the crime (or issue) warrants ending a Soldiers career. Take all matters into consideration including the reasonable man theory. What would the average man Soldier had done in this Soldiers place. Thank you for your service.
(12)
(0)
CPT Lawrence Cable
"summary is a non punitive corrective action." Absolutely. I would argue that the entire Article 15 process for at least junior enlisted is designed to allow a soldier to screw up and not ruin his/her career. Too often it is used as a crutch for poor leadership ability. Sometimes there are reasons beyond what you assume.
We had come back from NTC as Engineer Augmentees (Army National Guard) and I had released the guys for the evening to go home and an 8 AM formation time the next day. Next morning, one soldier was AWOL, so I sent his team leader and squad leader to find him and bring him to me. The First Sergeant and I were discussing what we wanted to do with this soldier, when I heard a knock at the door and his squad leader brought him into room. Read him a bit of the riot act and asked for his side of the story. Apparently he had been living with his mother and step father and while he was at NTC, they had moved, not told him about it or wear, and had just left all his stuff on the front porch in boxes. WTF, I confirmed this with his squad leader and sent him back to his platoon. I hit him with some extra duty and called it a day.
Now I will admit that the First Sergeant, Platoon Sergeant, Squad Leader and I were almost rolling on the floor after that soldier left the room. What do you say to a Soldier that just told you his mom had moved, not told him where and left his stuff on the porch?
We had come back from NTC as Engineer Augmentees (Army National Guard) and I had released the guys for the evening to go home and an 8 AM formation time the next day. Next morning, one soldier was AWOL, so I sent his team leader and squad leader to find him and bring him to me. The First Sergeant and I were discussing what we wanted to do with this soldier, when I heard a knock at the door and his squad leader brought him into room. Read him a bit of the riot act and asked for his side of the story. Apparently he had been living with his mother and step father and while he was at NTC, they had moved, not told him about it or wear, and had just left all his stuff on the front porch in boxes. WTF, I confirmed this with his squad leader and sent him back to his platoon. I hit him with some extra duty and called it a day.
Now I will admit that the First Sergeant, Platoon Sergeant, Squad Leader and I were almost rolling on the floor after that soldier left the room. What do you say to a Soldier that just told you his mom had moved, not told him where and left his stuff on the porch?
(3)
(0)
SPC Rick HUnt
A soldiers leader is the best leader. Well said CSM. My brother is a 1Sgt an absolutely loves helping an talking to soldier's, Has command opposition because after all these years he can make a difference. Even them knowing his stance they still wanted to talk him into CSM. Be safe brother
(1)
(0)
I would first hear the reason, some times life throws a curveball. if it is not a Life or death situation, then, in my counseling statement, I would recommend another Article 15, this time pushing for a field grade, then I would also recommend to the commander a flag and bar, and possible chapter. Other things I would recommend, if the Troop lives off post, putting the Troop in the barracks for the duration of his NJP, living off post is a privilege not a right, and Command can restrict the Troop to the barracks, and chow hall. Have the troop Accompanied by an NCO, (yeah I know this sucks for the NCO, but its one of the reasons we get paid), have the troop sign in at Either the SD desks 1594, or CQ's 1594 every hour. You can get creative.
One other thing - your PSG does not have to agree with your recommendation, he can rebut the recommendation when and if the counseling statement goes to the commander/1SG - a slap on the wrist in this instance does more harm then good IMHO, as the Troop should have already learned about screwing up when the Troop received the NJP, and it sends a signal to the other members of the platoon that the behavior is not only tolerated, but is no big deal.
One other thing - your PSG does not have to agree with your recommendation, he can rebut the recommendation when and if the counseling statement goes to the commander/1SG - a slap on the wrist in this instance does more harm then good IMHO, as the Troop should have already learned about screwing up when the Troop received the NJP, and it sends a signal to the other members of the platoon that the behavior is not only tolerated, but is no big deal.
(8)
(0)
SSG Robert Perrotto
PV2 Dan O - Also - the statement "its just FTR" is a problem in and of itself -The troop missed a movement - failing to be where your are supposed to be at the time you are required to be there can have serious consequences, not just for you, but for your battle buddies - it takes time of the NCO's to track you down, it causes delays in training, and if you are in a combat environment, it can endanger your life and the lives of those brothers to your left and right.
(2)
(0)
SSG Robert Perrotto
PV2 Dan O - I want to say thank you for proving my last point of my original post. The "punishment" part is up to the Commander to decide - I would recommend a FG, was I a hard NCO - absolutely - but I was also very fair - to me, this troop already had an opportunity to correct themselves by receiving a summarized, and I am sure that the reason for the summarized was more then 1 instance of infractions. More like he had a verbal counseling, then a paper counseling, and then the summarized.
(1)
(0)
(0)
(0)
What was the original infraction that he was doing NJP for? If they are related and indicate a problem, then I think recommending another Company grade is warranted.
(7)
(0)
MCPO (Join to see)
I agree. If the two infractions are the same, the troop is showing a pattern and the member didn’t learn anything from extra duties. If he’s a high performer and worthy of your efforts, you might want to dig a little deeper. Look at what’s happening in his personal life. (You might need to talk with friends to get a clearer picture.) Certain things can look normal on the surface but when you peel back the layers you might find the real reason for your troops lack of effort. A counseling on his emotional / spiritual levels combined with failure to report are symptomatic of depression and alcoholism. If the member has this going on then treatment might be an option that SM has thought of yet. (I’ve seen this before.) Harsh punishment will only make matters worse if what is really needed is professional help.
(1)
(0)
Regs are in black and white- you can get hammered for any violation- what you get tho is decided by the Commander- he can down grade, or give less punishment. You can recommend all the way up to Court-martial- does not mean the CO will go along.
(4)
(0)
Counseling after counseling destroys morale and increases likelihood of being ftr. Ask him what is wrong. As a friend. Not as an NCO. Tell him you are there to help. It can make a world of difference.
(3)
(0)
PFC (Join to see)
Counselings don't really make a problem go away. Maybe just make the soldier do a bunch of pushups instead.
(0)
(0)
I want to thank everyone that took the time to answer, we decided that giving him few days to show up on time and show positive work ethic would be enough to determine whether he was recommended or not, SM did very well everyday and proved us wrong. Now we are hoping that he stays on the right path and doesn't turn into the problem child. He served his ED with dignity and by allowing him the probation period and not jumping into more punishment his morale has noticeably improved. Again thanks everyone Backbone!
(2)
(0)
In my opinion, as others have said, a Field Grade may be a bit of a drastic “next step.” The purpose of NJP is to retrain and rehabilitate a Soldier based on demonstrated performance deficiencies. The Summarized Art 15 seems like it was the result of progressive and increasing levels of effort to influence the proper behavior. A Company Grade seems like a solid possibility for the next step, but as has been mentioned, the PSG will need to assess the whole situation with you.
Creativity was mentioned here, and that can be a critical, challenging, and useful measure to correcting behavior deficiencies, for the Soldier who wants to improve and grow.
Examples (real world) I will share:
A Soldier was late, we (myself and another SSG) took away his Saturday. Every hour between 0700 and 1900, he was to report to one of us in a uniform determined by the other at check in. So, he reported to me at 0700 in APFU, at which time I informed him of the next uniform to report in, and I then called the other SSG to let him know what it would be. This continued until 1900 when we both met the Soldier at his room for a full ta-50 layout. That Soldier was never late again while he worked with us, and all of the Soldiers appreciated that it was not automatically some form of NJP for merely being late a couple of times.
Another Soldier (E4) called her boyfriend’s Cell phone while he was in formation. The Platoon Sergeant answered the phone for him, as it rang during his formation. I just so happened to be standing behind the formation at the time, because we had been at a range all day. Once he answered the phone, she (my Soldier) addressed the PSG by his first name. She figured it was alright, since she was calling her boyfriend’s personal Cell phone. He disagreed. I disagreed. She wound up standing outside the Club at Parade Rest for the lunch hours for the next three days, delivering the proper greeting of the day to all who entered. Naturally, she had a pistol belt and two full canteens, and had the opportunity to go and eat lunch when she was done, but the point was made and received, loud and clear.
One must simply ensure that the punishment addresses the behavior that needs to be corrected. This particular situation is probably past these types of measures though, and after figuring out why the Soldier was late for ED, a decision must be made. Consider the lasting effects of the proposed punishment, and the history of the Soldier, and proceed in concert with the Platoon Sergeant’s guidance.
Good luck, this is definitely a trying and challenging time/situation for a young NCO.
Creativity was mentioned here, and that can be a critical, challenging, and useful measure to correcting behavior deficiencies, for the Soldier who wants to improve and grow.
Examples (real world) I will share:
A Soldier was late, we (myself and another SSG) took away his Saturday. Every hour between 0700 and 1900, he was to report to one of us in a uniform determined by the other at check in. So, he reported to me at 0700 in APFU, at which time I informed him of the next uniform to report in, and I then called the other SSG to let him know what it would be. This continued until 1900 when we both met the Soldier at his room for a full ta-50 layout. That Soldier was never late again while he worked with us, and all of the Soldiers appreciated that it was not automatically some form of NJP for merely being late a couple of times.
Another Soldier (E4) called her boyfriend’s Cell phone while he was in formation. The Platoon Sergeant answered the phone for him, as it rang during his formation. I just so happened to be standing behind the formation at the time, because we had been at a range all day. Once he answered the phone, she (my Soldier) addressed the PSG by his first name. She figured it was alright, since she was calling her boyfriend’s personal Cell phone. He disagreed. I disagreed. She wound up standing outside the Club at Parade Rest for the lunch hours for the next three days, delivering the proper greeting of the day to all who entered. Naturally, she had a pistol belt and two full canteens, and had the opportunity to go and eat lunch when she was done, but the point was made and received, loud and clear.
One must simply ensure that the punishment addresses the behavior that needs to be corrected. This particular situation is probably past these types of measures though, and after figuring out why the Soldier was late for ED, a decision must be made. Consider the lasting effects of the proposed punishment, and the history of the Soldier, and proceed in concert with the Platoon Sergeant’s guidance.
Good luck, this is definitely a trying and challenging time/situation for a young NCO.
(2)
(0)
You want to jump straight to a FG Article 15? Damn.
1) Was the last day of the SMs ED the ONLY day they were late? How late were they?
2) Did you find out why they were late? Was the reason given valid and justifiable?
3) Sure, apparently the initial Summarized was warranted, but you want to give this SM a 2 strike and you're out? Personally, if the being late on the last day for ED is an issue that is NOT related to the reason they got the Summarized in the first place, then how can you justify going straight to recommending a Field Grade? And, since I re-read the situation after my initial post, I see the two events are connected, but again how can you justify going from Summarized right to Field Grade?
1) Was the last day of the SMs ED the ONLY day they were late? How late were they?
2) Did you find out why they were late? Was the reason given valid and justifiable?
3) Sure, apparently the initial Summarized was warranted, but you want to give this SM a 2 strike and you're out? Personally, if the being late on the last day for ED is an issue that is NOT related to the reason they got the Summarized in the first place, then how can you justify going straight to recommending a Field Grade? And, since I re-read the situation after my initial post, I see the two events are connected, but again how can you justify going from Summarized right to Field Grade?
(2)
(0)
PO1 John Johnson
Reminds when I was an E-2. I was late for morning muster by 15 minutes and got taken to Captain's Mast (Article 15) and found guilty by an O-6 of Unauthorized Absence to send a warning to all the other E1's - E'3's on base. I though it was overkill, but then who was I?
(1)
(0)
PO1 John Johnson
MSG (Join to see) - To tell the truth, I probably asked for it as I was a major league pain in the butt that first year. The E-6 Bosun took me under his wing and pointed me in the right direction after the Captain's mast and everything turned okay after all things considered.
(1)
(0)
SGT (Join to see) The idea of ART 15 is the ability to modify behavior without the seriousness of Court marshal.
As this SM has chosen to not take advantage of the opportunity given him, were it me and my commander, it would be a cascade opportunity...next up a field grade with separation proceedings started at a stated goal of under honorable conditions, but full discloser continued acting out would earn an other then honorable or Court marshal and push for bad conduct discharge ,, And at this point its the SM's choice, but next time standing on the carpet, it would not be
As this SM has chosen to not take advantage of the opportunity given him, were it me and my commander, it would be a cascade opportunity...next up a field grade with separation proceedings started at a stated goal of under honorable conditions, but full discloser continued acting out would earn an other then honorable or Court marshal and push for bad conduct discharge ,, And at this point its the SM's choice, but next time standing on the carpet, it would not be
(1)
(0)
Read This Next

UCMJ
Article 15
Legal Services
