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Is this necessary in our society, especially after the Michael Brown and Eric Garner deaths? Or are these folks taking it too far?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/02/texas-gun-nuts-police-the-police-with-a-black-panthers-tactic.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/02/texas-gun-nuts-police-the-police-with-a-black-panthers-tactic.html
Posted in these groups: 
Police
Police
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 42
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Idiots doing idiot things. That picture is fantastic. The draw-stroke on the thigh holster will be messy, his finger gesture is a threat.
Look. Accountability is important, body cameras are a great idea. Filming Police during their duties can be done respectfully and non-confrontation-ally. Carrying a weapon for defense of self and others when done lawfully and non-threateningly are fantastic.
A person habitually following another person while openly armed and filming them? That's a threat. Doesn't matter who the parties are.
Look. Accountability is important, body cameras are a great idea. Filming Police during their duties can be done respectfully and non-confrontation-ally. Carrying a weapon for defense of self and others when done lawfully and non-threateningly are fantastic.
A person habitually following another person while openly armed and filming them? That's a threat. Doesn't matter who the parties are.
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC(P) Jay Heenan, I don’t think there are a great percentage of cops that are corrupt, but I do think a great many overstep their authority and that needs to be reigned in.
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SSG Trevor S.
This is not my opinion, but an easily pointed out observation that this argument can be turned against officers also:
"A person habitually following another person while openly armed and filming them? That's a threat. Doesn't matter who the parties are. "
Officers are armed, it can be assumed they have dash cams, and even if they are just traveling a patrol route it can seem as though they are following you. Does this make them a threat?
Before everyone gets going on this I do think officers being able to film gives them legal protection to show they are doing the right thing, conversely a citizen has the right to gather such evidence too. I think an officer being armed for protection is a good thing, I also think it is a good idea for citizens too. I also think mixing the situations to intentionally cause tension is a bad thing. A stand off distance for cop watching should be enforceable IMO.
"A person habitually following another person while openly armed and filming them? That's a threat. Doesn't matter who the parties are. "
Officers are armed, it can be assumed they have dash cams, and even if they are just traveling a patrol route it can seem as though they are following you. Does this make them a threat?
Before everyone gets going on this I do think officers being able to film gives them legal protection to show they are doing the right thing, conversely a citizen has the right to gather such evidence too. I think an officer being armed for protection is a good thing, I also think it is a good idea for citizens too. I also think mixing the situations to intentionally cause tension is a bad thing. A stand off distance for cop watching should be enforceable IMO.
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Capt Richard I P.
SSG Trevor S. If a police officer were to follow me for more than a couple turns I would indeed begin to feel threatened. Particularly if her were dismounted, armed and filming me openly.
The more film we have of encounters the better, and an armed society is a polite society, but it's the following and stalking that becomes harassing.
The more film we have of encounters the better, and an armed society is a polite society, but it's the following and stalking that becomes harassing.
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The supreme court has ruled that recording law enforcement officers in the line of duty is not against the law. Be polite and professional and stay out of the line of fire. I understand what they are doing, I just don't agree with their tactics.
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Cop Watching based upon what is in the article.
- Possibly a good idea but terrible execution.
- If civilians watch cops and even video tape without interfering with a policeman's conducting of his job then no problem.
- If civilians interfere with a policeman doing his/her job, initiate incidents for social media effect, and/or carry weapons into an incident that is already potentially dangerous for everyone including the police then how is that a good idea?
- Goes to difference between right and recommended. Just because a person has a right to open carry does not mean that it is recommended that they do so while cop watching.
- There might be better COAs to achieve the effect that this group is trying to create without unneccesarily escalating an incident or increasing the risk and therefore the safety of all.
- Possibly a good idea but terrible execution.
- If civilians watch cops and even video tape without interfering with a policeman's conducting of his job then no problem.
- If civilians interfere with a policeman doing his/her job, initiate incidents for social media effect, and/or carry weapons into an incident that is already potentially dangerous for everyone including the police then how is that a good idea?
- Goes to difference between right and recommended. Just because a person has a right to open carry does not mean that it is recommended that they do so while cop watching.
- There might be better COAs to achieve the effect that this group is trying to create without unneccesarily escalating an incident or increasing the risk and therefore the safety of all.
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I'm going with Other, because I don't plan to read the article -- not especially after there's a picture of some dipshit with two pistols.
I'm probably going to earn myself a downvote or two for this -- but yeah. I think it's necessary. I don't think you need to be armed, and certainly the possibly-misleading image of a guy with his hand near one of his two sidearms indicates that's what this is about. With the rise of social media sites like Vine, Vimeo, and YouTube, and with the profileration of high-quality cameras on smart phones, quad-copters, and even things like GoPros, these are things that people should be using -- not firearms.
How many times have we seen eyewitness video of an overzealous police officer wailing on someone they've already got on the ground? Without mentioning specifics, I could rattle off six high-profile incidents of alleged police brutality that almost certainly might disappear had it not been for some bystander with their camera. I'm going to be honest -- I have a lot of close friends who are cops, I know some RP members are cops, and none of that dissuades me. I feel like the culture of closing ranks is why a lot of people have issues with trusting the police. You guys can say "we police our own" and that's fine -- having one more set of eyeballs shouldn't be an issue then, right? Just like I've been told "If you aren't doing anything illegal you have nothing to fear"? Right back atcha officer.
I don't buy into that bullshit line about "not doing anything illegal" if/then, by the way.
I'm probably going to earn myself a downvote or two for this -- but yeah. I think it's necessary. I don't think you need to be armed, and certainly the possibly-misleading image of a guy with his hand near one of his two sidearms indicates that's what this is about. With the rise of social media sites like Vine, Vimeo, and YouTube, and with the profileration of high-quality cameras on smart phones, quad-copters, and even things like GoPros, these are things that people should be using -- not firearms.
How many times have we seen eyewitness video of an overzealous police officer wailing on someone they've already got on the ground? Without mentioning specifics, I could rattle off six high-profile incidents of alleged police brutality that almost certainly might disappear had it not been for some bystander with their camera. I'm going to be honest -- I have a lot of close friends who are cops, I know some RP members are cops, and none of that dissuades me. I feel like the culture of closing ranks is why a lot of people have issues with trusting the police. You guys can say "we police our own" and that's fine -- having one more set of eyeballs shouldn't be an issue then, right? Just like I've been told "If you aren't doing anything illegal you have nothing to fear"? Right back atcha officer.
I don't buy into that bullshit line about "not doing anything illegal" if/then, by the way.
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CW5 (Join to see)
Thanks for your candid opinion, SSG Tim Everett. Because of the few bad apples, I tend to agree with what you said: If the police are policing their own and not doing anything wrong - AND the observer is staying out of the way - what's the problem? There should not be a problem with that in my opinion.
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SSG Tim Everett
The irony here is that we tend to make a big deal about moderate Muslims not standing up and vociferously decrying the fanatical terrorists that hijack their religion... but we don't say anything about the hundreds of thousands of good police officers who don't take a stand against the shitbags in their ranks. Instead, because the military brotherhood is similar, we quietly keep our heads down. We wait until movies like Serpico are on DVD, and we quietly enjoy watching it and reading about Frank Serpico's struggle with that blue line.
Frank Serpico is still disavowed by many in the NYPD, people who weren't even born when he was shot.
Frank Serpico is still disavowed by many in the NYPD, people who weren't even born when he was shot.
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Being a police officer for 25 years and knowing no police officer wants to harm anyone I don't think there is a need for cop watchers, we police our own. Police watchers have been and always will be there. Its the protesters that take it to far and have no clue what they are protesting for. People seem to care less what the evidence shows and just argue to argue and get their faces on the tv. Is there a real answer?
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CW5 (Join to see)
Probably not, PO3 Jeff Lane. Thanks for your feedback from the front lines of policing.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
PO3 Jeff Lane I think part of the problem is way to many of your compatriots have exceeded their authority while others have been caught in blatantly criminal behavior. I agree that most police became police for valid and valiant reasons, but your ability to "police your own" appears to be problematic at best.
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PO3 Jeff Lane
There isn't a unit, a command or a police department that doesn't have bad eggs. As in the military and in the police world we do the best we can to get the best people we can get on the street. However, like I said there are always bad eggs and being overly politically correct has been getting everyone into tight spots as of late. No one is perfect Mr. Evans and people make mistakes no matter what they do in life. Don't point fingers at all of law enforcement. Looking at the big picture the percentages of bad eggs are pretty low in both of our worlds. We can only deal with them as they come to light and try not to make the mistakes in recruiting as we all have in the past.
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If they want to go watch cops all day, that's fine. Pull up a lounge chair, eat some popcorn, hold up your little protest signs. What's not cool is this:
"Chasing leads from police scanners, members of OCTC and a local faction known as Cop Block—another loosely organized group of anti-law enforcement libertarian-leaners—have been gathering in the approach to DUI checkpoints and speed traps to warn motorists of the police presence, responding in real time with cops to 911 calls, making impromptu stops to film strangers’ traffic violations, all while trolling the police they observe."
Sounds like many of them are attention-seekers, hoping to make the next viral video, and at the least causing obstruction.
"Chasing leads from police scanners, members of OCTC and a local faction known as Cop Block—another loosely organized group of anti-law enforcement libertarian-leaners—have been gathering in the approach to DUI checkpoints and speed traps to warn motorists of the police presence, responding in real time with cops to 911 calls, making impromptu stops to film strangers’ traffic violations, all while trolling the police they observe."
Sounds like many of them are attention-seekers, hoping to make the next viral video, and at the least causing obstruction.
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CW5 (Join to see)
All good points, SGT (Join to see). I agree with you about the DUI checkpoints and interfering with the police. I also agree that many of these folks are seeking attention. For those who are honestly interested in policing the police (so to speak), I think it should be okay for citizens to watch police activity, as long as they are out of the way and not interfering with the police in any way.
Thanks for your response.
Thanks for your response.
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I know the guys in Open Carry Tarrant County in as much as I have gone to a couple of their events and am on their Facebook page. Their open-carry message is good, even if they take it to extremes at times.
Their cop-watching is just stupidity. Cops have a hard enough time doing their job without the harassment.
Their cop-watching is just stupidity. Cops have a hard enough time doing their job without the harassment.
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Another group spoiling for a fight.
Why would you for example interfere with/warn motorists who are headed into a DUI checkpoint that they are having one? Great news, now they can drive another direction and kill a family of 6. Makes perfect sense.
Why would a group interfere with the police as they are responding to a 911 call. Newsflash idiots, someone needs help, and you are interfering.
Should bad cops be held accountable? Yes.
For sure, what we do not need are police forces that rather than arresting bad guys, send them notes asking them to surrender, if they don't mind...
Why would you for example interfere with/warn motorists who are headed into a DUI checkpoint that they are having one? Great news, now they can drive another direction and kill a family of 6. Makes perfect sense.
Why would a group interfere with the police as they are responding to a 911 call. Newsflash idiots, someone needs help, and you are interfering.
Should bad cops be held accountable? Yes.
For sure, what we do not need are police forces that rather than arresting bad guys, send them notes asking them to surrender, if they don't mind...
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CW5 (Join to see)
Excellent points, CMSgt James Nolan. I agree with your post, 100%. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Effing idiots...all is well and good until one of them gets in the way and they get injured and now what to sue the police.
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC(P) Jay Heenan, no. You and I are in agreement in our opinions of this particular group. Though, there is enough abuse of authority in law enforcement to warrant strict oversight. Whether it be just body-cams or an official state/fed agency to oversee law enforcement at all levels. The current internal affairs system doesn't seem to work.
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
I hear you SFC (Join to see), more oversight by other agencies, doesn't mean better oversight. Body cams are cool and all, but they don't show all angles or give you an accurate depth perception when watching film. We need the police agencies to do better at their own oversight.
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC(P) Jay Heenan, body-cams aren't perfect, but they are a step in the right direction. Dash-cams don't tell the whole story, but have been very helpful in protecting both police and citizens.
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