Posted on Jan 14, 2014
What is your opinion on the Army Motorcycle Policy and regulations?
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I have just started riding again after 10 years, I used to ride dirt bikes. I have heard from many Motorcycle rider, experience and inexperienced, that there are two kinds of riders, those who have dropped their bikes and those who have not yet dropped their bike. I don't know if it is a Army wide policy or just a Fort Hood policy, but if you drop your bike for any reason (even if you drop it pushing it into your garage in your own driveway), you get grounded for three months or more before they will make a decision on what to do and then you have to go through the BRC again. I asked a friend of mine, a Marine what their policy is, I was told there really is no policy, just follow the rules of the state you are in. So what is your opinion the policy is? Are other Army Bases this strict, or is it just Fort Hood?
A post has been put out, and I question the same. If a motorcyclist must retake the BRC if they get into an accident, should it be the same for someone driving a car to take drivers training, weather it be their fault or not?
Update
I realize I may not have been clear in my post, I did not post exactly what happened because I did not feel was relavent and I wanted it to be short and to the point. I just wanted to get the basic how do you feel about policies. With some comments that have been made, Im thinking I should have just posted what happened.
So I am not at Hood anymore, when this incident happend, I was about 2 or 3 months from PCS. When I spoke on dropping it in your garage, it was just for example of a possible incident to get grounded for. I just started riding again, purchased a used bike, and still getting used to the controls. I was in a half empty parking lot at lunch, no cars driving around, I was driving about 2mph, I started to turn one way and decided I didn't want to go that way, stalled the bike; since I was in a slight lean, it cause my bike to drop (first and only time since I started riding again). No property damage, the bike was not damaged, I was not injured. I was honest with my mentor about what happend, though nobody saw that I know of, he had to report it. An investigation was opened up, I was denied to see the BG CDR to state my case. I even have an email where my BN CDR said I can start riding again, and then he took it back. I was enrolled in the BRC at Hood, and someone kept cancelling my reservation. At this time I have been in about 10 years, I have never been to IG, and they wouldn't help me out. The rumor, what I hear from who I feel is a very reliable sources, is that the commanding III Corps General (during this time period) hates motorcycles and has made strict policy because so, and if one of the prior 3 Generals (who were motorcyle enthusiasts) were still in command, this very likely would be pretty much a life lesson. I think that clears things up a bit, I appologize for any misunderstanding.
A post has been put out, and I question the same. If a motorcyclist must retake the BRC if they get into an accident, should it be the same for someone driving a car to take drivers training, weather it be their fault or not?
Update
I realize I may not have been clear in my post, I did not post exactly what happened because I did not feel was relavent and I wanted it to be short and to the point. I just wanted to get the basic how do you feel about policies. With some comments that have been made, Im thinking I should have just posted what happened.
So I am not at Hood anymore, when this incident happend, I was about 2 or 3 months from PCS. When I spoke on dropping it in your garage, it was just for example of a possible incident to get grounded for. I just started riding again, purchased a used bike, and still getting used to the controls. I was in a half empty parking lot at lunch, no cars driving around, I was driving about 2mph, I started to turn one way and decided I didn't want to go that way, stalled the bike; since I was in a slight lean, it cause my bike to drop (first and only time since I started riding again). No property damage, the bike was not damaged, I was not injured. I was honest with my mentor about what happend, though nobody saw that I know of, he had to report it. An investigation was opened up, I was denied to see the BG CDR to state my case. I even have an email where my BN CDR said I can start riding again, and then he took it back. I was enrolled in the BRC at Hood, and someone kept cancelling my reservation. At this time I have been in about 10 years, I have never been to IG, and they wouldn't help me out. The rumor, what I hear from who I feel is a very reliable sources, is that the commanding III Corps General (during this time period) hates motorcycles and has made strict policy because so, and if one of the prior 3 Generals (who were motorcyle enthusiasts) were still in command, this very likely would be pretty much a life lesson. I think that clears things up a bit, I appologize for any misunderstanding.
Motorcycles
Regulation
Army
Policy
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 18
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SPC(P) Bailey - Leave it to the US Army Combat Readiness/Safety Center to have all the answers to your questions. I suggest that you take a look at the page and see what you can find out there. Along with that, you should research through your unit Safety Officer what the "additional" safety measures that have been directed by your unit/installation. Good luck riding!!!
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CSM (Join to see)
I agree the army safety center is a very good place to start to get answers for your questions you might have. remember commanders can make the requirements harder but can not relax the standard any more then stated originally. Also the army wide requirement to have a basic rider safety course is a good thing. I grew up on dirt bikes on the ranch and once old enough bought my first street bike . There is a difference so this helps bridge the gap so to speak.
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Every commander can make their own rules. Most installations have a "motorcycle mentorship program" policy letter or something similar. A lot of brigades, some battalions, and very few company sized elements have their own policy letters that are more stringent than the post policy.
Check with the motorcycle mentor in your unit (usually someone that does the TCLOCS inspection) to get all the resources.
Now, if that (about dropping the bike) is true, then I am going to openly support command decision and quietly shake my head.
Fort Lee is relatively reasonable on their motorcycle safety policy. My unit has its own and more strict policy. One of the elements is a full body picture of the rider wearing all PPE alongside with a counseling, a memorandum, copies of all documentation, within (more stringent) dates for BRC, etc. I tell the students to just leave their bikes at their respective duty stations.
Check with the motorcycle mentor in your unit (usually someone that does the TCLOCS inspection) to get all the resources.
Now, if that (about dropping the bike) is true, then I am going to openly support command decision and quietly shake my head.
Fort Lee is relatively reasonable on their motorcycle safety policy. My unit has its own and more strict policy. One of the elements is a full body picture of the rider wearing all PPE alongside with a counseling, a memorandum, copies of all documentation, within (more stringent) dates for BRC, etc. I tell the students to just leave their bikes at their respective duty stations.
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SSG (Join to see)
Most units do have a mentorship program to include the full body picture. I'm working on that now with my unit.
I disagree with many things within DOD regarding motorcycles but the one that SPC Bailey mentioned about dropping the bike is ridiculous. Things happen. No rider is perfect but we do make every effort to stay as safe as possible. To put it in perspective, if we were to apply the same rules to automibles then many people would be fully retaking the driver's tests just because they are in an accident, whether their fault or not. What about if a vehicle gets damaged because of some type of weather (i.e. hail)? Retake driver's tests?
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SGT (Join to see)
I agree with you, if a motrcycle rider must retake the BRC for any kind of accident on their bike, then it should be the same in a care or truck. Their was this girl in my unit who got into a few accidents, I don't think they ever did anything about it.
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SSG Paul Ellis
I got a speeding ticket on Ft. Hood (on one of those back roads with nobody around except the MP who was hiding out of sight) and to remove it from my record, I had to take a 1 day class on West Ft. Hood where we drove car simulators. There were motorcycle simulators there also.
That seems like a common sense idea to retrain after car and motorcycle accidents. Let's be honest. It's more CA for the chain of command than anything else.
That seems like a common sense idea to retrain after car and motorcycle accidents. Let's be honest. It's more CA for the chain of command than anything else.
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As with most Army policies and all zero tolerance policies this ignores leaders and the situation the Soldier was in and the decisions the Soldier made. You can do everything right and still have an accident. My guess is the CG does not have a bike.
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Maj Chris Nelson
I find that MANY people making decissions for others do NOT have a vested interest, or any real deapth of knowledge on the subject they are making the decissions on....whether it be motorcycles or firearms, or a myrid of other things. and I abhor zero tolerance policies.....
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Doesn't sound like a realistic policy, are you sure this is a Fort Hood policy or are other riders just spreading the rumor that there is? I would verify, dropping a motorcycle has nothing to do with riding. You don't need a motorcycle license to move or load a bike, and many soldiers on base buy them and then learn to ride.
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SGT (Join to see)
Well I am not at Hood anymore, and no, it doesn't seem realistic. At that time, that was the current policy of the commanding General. Accident was not defined, and it is rumored that the General at that time did not like motorcycles and was doing everything he could to get riders grounded.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
Seems like the commanding General is overextending his authority. I could be wrong, but if IG is unwilling to look into the matter I would talk to legal. If the policy doesn't clearly define something, and there is no publicly accepted definition that puts 'dropping a bike' into the accident category; then I would argue their interpretation is inaccurate for the policy written.
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SSG Paul Ellis
No. This sounds like the CG at Hood during 2011. The previous one was a motorcycle enthusiast. He started the Fort Hood Phantom Thunder rides. When he left in 2010, the new CG - who by all indications, really does hate motorcycles - started making new policy that made riding a pain.
One example: The previous CG - who was a rider - knew reflective vests weren't much use during bright Texas days. So we didn't have to wear reflective vests during the day. Just during pre-dawn, dusk and night time. During the day, we just had to wear brightly colored, long sleeve shirts. This was for at least 2 years.
Fast forward to the new CG and the reflective vests - not a road guard vest, but a reflective vest - are back. The real kicker is that the reason given by command is that the gate guards can't distinguish what a brightly colored long sleeve shirt looks like...after two years of doing just that. The new CG could have at least had the guts to say the policy change was, "Because I said so" instead of putting out a bogus reason like that.
One example: The previous CG - who was a rider - knew reflective vests weren't much use during bright Texas days. So we didn't have to wear reflective vests during the day. Just during pre-dawn, dusk and night time. During the day, we just had to wear brightly colored, long sleeve shirts. This was for at least 2 years.
Fast forward to the new CG and the reflective vests - not a road guard vest, but a reflective vest - are back. The real kicker is that the reason given by command is that the gate guards can't distinguish what a brightly colored long sleeve shirt looks like...after two years of doing just that. The new CG could have at least had the guts to say the policy change was, "Because I said so" instead of putting out a bogus reason like that.
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I believe the Army should enforce soldiers to abide by the laws of the road while off post. It doesn't matter if you are in a vehicle or on a motorcycle. Do what the law requires. I can understand the Army dictating additional safety precautions on post.
I also believe that if I have to wear a PT vest on my motorcycle then vehicle driver's should have them affixed to the exterior of their cars/trucks so I can see them better.
I also believe that if I have to wear a PT vest on my motorcycle then vehicle driver's should have them affixed to the exterior of their cars/trucks so I can see them better.
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SSG Byron Howard Sr
When I was stationed in Denver state law was if you were over 18 you could ride without a helmet. But if you got hurt while riding without a helmet you were subject to paying your doctor and or hospital bill and subject to UCMJ.
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There are changes on the street that do not require reflective materials (big Army policies) however, as mentioned before the local commander has the option (and responsibility) to make change which best protects his forces.
My personal opinion and I am a strong believer that those that ride (or have a background of riding) dirt bikes/off road riding have a much better chance of riding and surviving the challenges on the street whether those challenges are debris or other drivers.
I really don't care what you think about the USMC however, my brother in the Corps have got this right and we can stand to learn a lot from their motorcycle riders program which beginners start off road (on dirtbikes). It makes sense, dirtbikes and lighter, less costly to repair and much easier for a novice rider to handle. You will also face (and be able to conquer) many more obstacles on a dirtbike (e.g. RMZ 450F) than a Hayabusa or Street Glide Special.
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SSG Byron Howard Sr
Why buy a diet bike if you don't want one? The reason for the Motorcycle Safety Course is to teach the proper way to ride in the street there's a lot of difference between riding in the street and riding on the dirt.
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I find this topic invigorating and frustrating all at the same time. I have logged over 30k miles on my motorcycles since i joined the military, I am currently the Assistant MMP Coordinator for my unit.
In the last 4 months we have had 4 incidents involving three riders. One was hit while making a legal left turn. The Faulted party ran a red light. And yes the rider is OK and is almost recovered.
Where the other three incidents involved two soldiers, and consisted of three single vehicle accidents. (One soldier dropped his twice within 90 days).
Ft Huachuca has a policy that requires anyone riding to wear the Army minimum with a 60 dollar reflective vest.
I believe that there is a certain amount of "Crap" or offenses that can take place prior to enforcing command suspension or force retraining. This goes for Motorcycles AND Cars.
Each first offense be it Speeding, single vehicle accident, or any other infraction of the law/regulation. A verbal discussion, maybe a counseling from the Mentor/NCO.
However if the second infraction occurs within lets say 90 days i can understand a unit revoking the privilege until retraining is completed. This should be done by the Mentor, as well as the soldiers NCO (If done while in a car the NCO should be prepared to provide that soldier with a class and a counseling statement.)
IF there is a third infraction retraining is a must. Regardless of being in a Car or on a Motorcycle.
That being said. Do i think that when i was walking my bike around my garage last week to make room for a project and it tipped over that i have just failed as a mentor or that i am less of a rider? No! Nor have i broken regulation. Why are you going to punish me for something that i did to my personal property? (Victory's tip over protection saved my @SS).
I admit that each base has alot of creative freedom when drawing up
Policies on items such as Motorcycles. But a full suspension of
priviliges for an OOPS like dropping your bike in the garage is
overboard.
I think that the army should endorse and help soldiers who want to become MSF Ride Coaches, or Driving Instructors/Master Drivers with the training to POVs as well as military vehicles.
At which point units can provide training opportunities and retraining alot easier. The MSF Ride Coach class can cost upwards of 1000 dollars.
In the last 4 months we have had 4 incidents involving three riders. One was hit while making a legal left turn. The Faulted party ran a red light. And yes the rider is OK and is almost recovered.
Where the other three incidents involved two soldiers, and consisted of three single vehicle accidents. (One soldier dropped his twice within 90 days).
Ft Huachuca has a policy that requires anyone riding to wear the Army minimum with a 60 dollar reflective vest.
I believe that there is a certain amount of "Crap" or offenses that can take place prior to enforcing command suspension or force retraining. This goes for Motorcycles AND Cars.
Each first offense be it Speeding, single vehicle accident, or any other infraction of the law/regulation. A verbal discussion, maybe a counseling from the Mentor/NCO.
However if the second infraction occurs within lets say 90 days i can understand a unit revoking the privilege until retraining is completed. This should be done by the Mentor, as well as the soldiers NCO (If done while in a car the NCO should be prepared to provide that soldier with a class and a counseling statement.)
IF there is a third infraction retraining is a must. Regardless of being in a Car or on a Motorcycle.
That being said. Do i think that when i was walking my bike around my garage last week to make room for a project and it tipped over that i have just failed as a mentor or that i am less of a rider? No! Nor have i broken regulation. Why are you going to punish me for something that i did to my personal property? (Victory's tip over protection saved my @SS).
I admit that each base has alot of creative freedom when drawing up
Policies on items such as Motorcycles. But a full suspension of
priviliges for an OOPS like dropping your bike in the garage is
overboard.
I think that the army should endorse and help soldiers who want to become MSF Ride Coaches, or Driving Instructors/Master Drivers with the training to POVs as well as military vehicles.
At which point units can provide training opportunities and retraining alot easier. The MSF Ride Coach class can cost upwards of 1000 dollars.
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Like previously stated, get in contact with your unit motorcycle mentor. He/she should have the most up to date policy letters and information in regards to riding your bike. I think grounding someone for 3 months for dropping their bike is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes it's way out of your control. Like you said, there is two types of riders, those who have dropped their bike before, and those who will drop their bike. I have even added a third group when I was mentor, those who will drop their bike again. Sometimes it's just unavoidable and the safer alternative. Hope contacting your mentor can clear it up for you. More so I hope it's just a word of mouth policy and not an actual written policy. Just remember, always keep the rubber side down!
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I will be the first to admit that until I got my bike, I just made rules that sounded good. Lesson learned on my part. I am too very confused that each command or each post has different rules and regulations. I would hope that the DOD would just say, here it is in black and white, don't add to it. Basic gear, long sleeve coat/jacket, reflective gear, helmet, gloves and eye pro. No need to go beyond that. As for the other part of the question, as stated above, make the best decision and when they do "punish" you would be a good time to help the non educated better enforce good rules.
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COL (Join to see)
There are some installations that use the DoD rules as the only rules and don't add to them.
Unfortunately, in the era of holding leaders accountable for the choices of their subordinates we have created a 'Cover Yourself' by creating local policies that, on my opinion, are meant to dissuade anyone from riding a motorcycle.
I am hoping that with the drawdown and the desire for those Soldiers/Leaders who want to stay in that we can hold INDIVIDUALS accountable for their poor actions/choices. Leaders do have a requirement to ensure their subordinates know the policies, but if Soldiers make choices that they know are wrong, of their own free will, then they should face the consequences. Their leaders should not be punished for the mistakes of their subordinates who knowingly broke the rules.
I truly believe that if the Army could they would make riding a motorcycle unauthorized...because of the mistakes made by the few who choose to do stupid things on bikes -- riding without a license, not taking the MSF course, not wearing PPE, etc.
But the DoD has Safety requirements for motorcycle riders...I agree that this standards should be good enough for ll services/installations.
Unfortunately, in the era of holding leaders accountable for the choices of their subordinates we have created a 'Cover Yourself' by creating local policies that, on my opinion, are meant to dissuade anyone from riding a motorcycle.
I am hoping that with the drawdown and the desire for those Soldiers/Leaders who want to stay in that we can hold INDIVIDUALS accountable for their poor actions/choices. Leaders do have a requirement to ensure their subordinates know the policies, but if Soldiers make choices that they know are wrong, of their own free will, then they should face the consequences. Their leaders should not be punished for the mistakes of their subordinates who knowingly broke the rules.
I truly believe that if the Army could they would make riding a motorcycle unauthorized...because of the mistakes made by the few who choose to do stupid things on bikes -- riding without a license, not taking the MSF course, not wearing PPE, etc.
But the DoD has Safety requirements for motorcycle riders...I agree that this standards should be good enough for ll services/installations.
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