Posted on Sep 9, 2021
what regulation covers being forced to spend money ?
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so our new battalion sm is basically forcing us to spend money on getting certain things sewn on our gear and we face getting in trouble if we don't have it the way he does. i just want to know what regulation covers that, i've been searching but can't find one.
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Army Regulations
Army Regulations
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
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SPC Harrison, here's a leadership counseling approach I see coming into the Cross Hairs
You are approaching this (from my perception) that the Army somehow is obligated to pay you to conduct yourself in a professional and responsible manner.
There is no regulation that says the army has to pay your laundry services, or detergent, or anything regarding uniform up keep. So by the logic you present you could come into work every day having never cleaned your uniform. The army also isn't providing you transportation services to get to and from work once you start living off post.
When I was a SPC I personally had to have my name sewn on my gortex jacked on the sleeve and same with elastic band on my ACH to have my name. These were both out of pocket. It never occurred to me to push back in regard to the costs.
It's usually around this time when I observe such a question by a SPC pushing back on a SM outside my office I close my door.
You are approaching this (from my perception) that the Army somehow is obligated to pay you to conduct yourself in a professional and responsible manner.
There is no regulation that says the army has to pay your laundry services, or detergent, or anything regarding uniform up keep. So by the logic you present you could come into work every day having never cleaned your uniform. The army also isn't providing you transportation services to get to and from work once you start living off post.
When I was a SPC I personally had to have my name sewn on my gortex jacked on the sleeve and same with elastic band on my ACH to have my name. These were both out of pocket. It never occurred to me to push back in regard to the costs.
It's usually around this time when I observe such a question by a SPC pushing back on a SM outside my office I close my door.
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No one is requiring you to spend YOUR money on uniform items. They are asking you to use your annual clothing allowance. Which is appropriate.
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MSG Thomas Currie
SFC Michael Hasbun - -- Sorry, but actually he is right about that one point. The clothing maintenance allowance is for the repair and replacement of uniforms due to normal wear. That is all it was ever intended to cover - which is why the amount is figured based on the clothing sales store price of each item divided by the supposed average life of that uniform item.
Sewing on REQUIRED items is supposed to be provided by the military -- but note that this only applies to required items on required uniforms. The military sews name tags on the uniforms they initially issue you, but not on any extra uniforms you buy. When those initial uniforms wear out, you do lose a few bucks having to get the name tags sewn on the replacements but I doubt that's what we're dealing with here.
Things have gotten a lot better since most patches are on velcro, but I wouldn't doubt that some units can still be problematic. At the same time, some soldiers who fancy themselves barracks lawyers can make a big deal pole vaulting over mouse turds.
This whole discussion would probably make a lot more sense if the original poster had the balls/brains to actually say what he was talking about rather than just vague whining.
Sewing on REQUIRED items is supposed to be provided by the military -- but note that this only applies to required items on required uniforms. The military sews name tags on the uniforms they initially issue you, but not on any extra uniforms you buy. When those initial uniforms wear out, you do lose a few bucks having to get the name tags sewn on the replacements but I doubt that's what we're dealing with here.
Things have gotten a lot better since most patches are on velcro, but I wouldn't doubt that some units can still be problematic. At the same time, some soldiers who fancy themselves barracks lawyers can make a big deal pole vaulting over mouse turds.
This whole discussion would probably make a lot more sense if the original poster had the balls/brains to actually say what he was talking about rather than just vague whining.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
MSG Thomas Currie - I think I might know what you're thinking of.
Now, when you buy a uniform at Clothing Sales, there is a form that you can fill out to have rank and service stripes sew on on those (though you have to buy them, they provide the alteration, the insignia themselves aren't provided), but that doesn't apply to RFI/CIF items, which is the topic of the OP.
Now, when you buy a uniform at Clothing Sales, there is a form that you can fill out to have rank and service stripes sew on on those (though you have to buy them, they provide the alteration, the insignia themselves aren't provided), but that doesn't apply to RFI/CIF items, which is the topic of the OP.
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MSG Thomas Currie
SFC Michael Hasbun - I haven't bothered with the constantly changing uniforms lately. Which RFI/CIF items actually require sewn on insignia? My last active duty assignment was in a command that was absolutely OCD about following uniform regs. None of our organizational issue equipment required anything sewn on that didn't come that way.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MSG Thomas Currie - Not sure if there is an equivalent today, but wool fatigues were organizational equipment and required the same stuff sown on as cotton fatigues. I had to pay for that from my own funds when I joined the 6th ACR at Meade.
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You are not providing much in the way of specifics. So I won't offer an opinion.
But I will say this... That is one of the problems with the Army's approach to uniforms. You soldiers have more varieties of gee-gaws, doo-dads and hats than the ladies at the Kentucky Derby.
Marine's don't have near the problem. Although the disease is catching with badges.
But I will say this... That is one of the problems with the Army's approach to uniforms. You soldiers have more varieties of gee-gaws, doo-dads and hats than the ladies at the Kentucky Derby.
Marine's don't have near the problem. Although the disease is catching with badges.
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CSM Charles Hayden
Maj John Bell The disease is not catching with those covered RANGER Tabs. Colonel xxxx at Camp Pendleton bragged on his RANGER Tab as he lifted the cover over his breast pocket!
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Maj John Bell
CSM Charles Hayden - It is an unauthorized uniform modification. Colonel xxxx's SgtMaj should have called him on it.
Lions don't need to roar.
Lions don't need to roar.
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Your follow up posts say things like "let me just make this clear" but you clarified nothing.
So, I'll just assume you're talking about name/rank on camo band, helmet cover, gortex jacket, IOTV, etc. The usual stuff that happens everywhere in the Army every day.
You also state, "clothing allowance shouldn't be spent on getting items from cif sewn on".
If we are talking about anything form CIF that is worn on the Soldier while in uniform, then it is subject to AR 670-1 and any SOP, like the 82nd ABN DIV PAM 600-2 or similar publication, so yeah, you can expect to spend about $20 of your annual $444.53 on some sewing for that.
You also state, "so yea not the answer i was looking for". We get that a lot here, Soldiers looking for the answer they want to hear, rather than the right one,
Especially when a Soldier asks something like, "what regulation covers being forced to spend money?"
Understand, when folks with 10-30 years in the Army hear a question like that, the first thing that comes to mind is every time they saw a Soldier easily spend $50-$80 weekly on energy drinks, smokes and dip, etc, and then looking for a regulatory way to skate out of paying $20 for sewing.
Finally, "all im trying to do is find a regulation on this" and "i dont need any lectures".
Well, when you ask about being "forced to spend money", you're setting yourself up for a lecture. Sewing is a cost of doing business in the Army, a pretty low cost, all things considered.
That aside, the regs start with AR 600-20, or what we like to call "your boss tells you what to do".
The order is legal, moral and ethical. And it's backed up by AR and DA PAM 670-1 and anything that adds to that, like your current DIV and/or BDE SOP.
Lastly, I implore you to see the bigger picture here. If you decide to stick around, you will soon be an NCO, and you will have your own Soldiers frequently asking you, "Why do I have to do something I don't want to do or is inconvenient for me? Surely there is some kind of regulation that says I don't have to?"
And it will be your responsibility to give them the right answer, which is almost never the answer they were looking for.
Pro tip: if you show them how to find the answer instead of just giving them the answer, you will make them better Soldiers faster.
So, I'll just assume you're talking about name/rank on camo band, helmet cover, gortex jacket, IOTV, etc. The usual stuff that happens everywhere in the Army every day.
You also state, "clothing allowance shouldn't be spent on getting items from cif sewn on".
If we are talking about anything form CIF that is worn on the Soldier while in uniform, then it is subject to AR 670-1 and any SOP, like the 82nd ABN DIV PAM 600-2 or similar publication, so yeah, you can expect to spend about $20 of your annual $444.53 on some sewing for that.
You also state, "so yea not the answer i was looking for". We get that a lot here, Soldiers looking for the answer they want to hear, rather than the right one,
Especially when a Soldier asks something like, "what regulation covers being forced to spend money?"
Understand, when folks with 10-30 years in the Army hear a question like that, the first thing that comes to mind is every time they saw a Soldier easily spend $50-$80 weekly on energy drinks, smokes and dip, etc, and then looking for a regulatory way to skate out of paying $20 for sewing.
Finally, "all im trying to do is find a regulation on this" and "i dont need any lectures".
Well, when you ask about being "forced to spend money", you're setting yourself up for a lecture. Sewing is a cost of doing business in the Army, a pretty low cost, all things considered.
That aside, the regs start with AR 600-20, or what we like to call "your boss tells you what to do".
The order is legal, moral and ethical. And it's backed up by AR and DA PAM 670-1 and anything that adds to that, like your current DIV and/or BDE SOP.
Lastly, I implore you to see the bigger picture here. If you decide to stick around, you will soon be an NCO, and you will have your own Soldiers frequently asking you, "Why do I have to do something I don't want to do or is inconvenient for me? Surely there is some kind of regulation that says I don't have to?"
And it will be your responsibility to give them the right answer, which is almost never the answer they were looking for.
Pro tip: if you show them how to find the answer instead of just giving them the answer, you will make them better Soldiers faster.
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So, this is the hill you want to die on? You will lose. The loss will be huge, epic, spectacular… I only wish I were there to witness it.
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There is no regulation. He cannot force you to spend money. However he can require that the alterations be made. Now whether you pay for them or do them by hand, they are still required, still a legal order and ... last I checked, you get a clothing allowance each year and this falls under things like that.
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Fort Bragg was the only place they made us sew names and identifiers on our uniforms and equipment. I usually just go ahead and spend my money doing so, save the receipts and then claim it on taxes the following year on work related expenses.
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I would hinge on AR 670-1 regarding the uniform as it is, and see if the SM is directing alterations outside of 670-1 (which is probably unlikely). It's not focused on "spending" per say but in the likely event alterations are outside of 670-1 could stop it dead in it's tracks if these ideas are solely the SM's.
This is probably a losing battle, and cost verses reward needs to be considered.
No one is going to force you to spend any money that doesn't have a commanding officer's signature on it, or at least comes from finance.
So no, you are not going to find a regulation that allows a SM to force you to spend money on uniform alterations.
What you are going to find is the AR 670-1 has a left and right limit of what uniform standards are. The SM probably has picked one, and simply put out a much narrow left and right limit of AR 670-1.
There is nothing stopping you from buying a thread and needle and putting them on yourself.
This is probably a losing battle, and cost verses reward needs to be considered.
No one is going to force you to spend any money that doesn't have a commanding officer's signature on it, or at least comes from finance.
So no, you are not going to find a regulation that allows a SM to force you to spend money on uniform alterations.
What you are going to find is the AR 670-1 has a left and right limit of what uniform standards are. The SM probably has picked one, and simply put out a much narrow left and right limit of AR 670-1.
There is nothing stopping you from buying a thread and needle and putting them on yourself.
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SFC (Join to see)
Agreed. If you’re talking badges, this is addressed in 670-1. You can’t mix pin, Velcro, and sewn-on. Not sure what else would be ordered worn on a uniform.
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CSM Charles Hayden
CPT (Join to see) “putting them on yourself”. When I received my mosquito wings for promoting to PFC, I tried sewing them on myself! One time only, I was cured and thereafter paid to have stripes sewn on!
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Judging by your statement/question, you are not prepared to be an NCO. A SARG maybe. In most units there's this thing called "standards." Standards are the way things suppose to be. In the case of the 82d, all paratroopers must have their name sewn on the OCIE equipment. But why sarge? To identify who it belongs too. Because that's the standard. Now the money issue, if you are having financial difficulties, I recommend that you seek a financial counselor to help you create a budget. Sometimes we have to spend money on items that are just required for our profession, like hair cuts or extra socks for the PT uniform. If you believe that your CSM is asking for something unlawful, contact your local IG, they will be happy to assist you find resolution. In the meantime, follow an enforce standards, as an NCO should.
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Jesus wept and you are an NCO.WTF you never had to palletize your gear for deployments, or drop rucks/gear to move out for an attack and been told S4 will police it up and link up with you at the end of day? So you saying it is more acceptable for you or your troops to lose several $100's of gear instead of having it marked to it can be broken down to the company and then to the individual. Anybody in for more than 2 years gets an annual clothing allowance. It doesn't cost much for name tags or reflective eyes, and a smart man can sew them on there self.
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