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I'm in the 101st now. I'm actually in a CAV unit as a grunt and we fast rope more than any other forscom unit on Campbell. Is flying in a hot DZ more dangerous than dropping in?
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11B1V: Airborne Ranger
Air Assault School
Airborne School
Infantry
Special Forces
11B1V: Airborne Ranger Air Assault School Airborne School Infantry Special Forces
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 50
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Neither. I was in Somalia in 93. I fast roped in under fire. was with the 1st Ranger batt. at the time. I am also jump qualified. Both are dangerous. but for different reasons.
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Personally, I would like to drop in. Landing in a hot LZ is not a lot of fun.
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In a hot LZ I would rather fast rope. But either way there is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft. Lol. Sorry to all the Air Force RPers and Chopper Jockies.
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Let's put it this way, every time I jump from 800m, fall to the earth using a thin blanket to slow my me down, and somehow hit the ground, get up and walk away, without injury, I feel I have somehow performed a miracle. I can't say I've ever felt that way on the rope...
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Richard J. - Fort Bragg JM actually. However USASOC jumpmasters are certified by Fort Benning and they keep their credentials once they leave. In fact, they are better qualified than a Benning or Bragg JM because they have to learn how to JMPI the MC-6 and T-11 and get both parachutes during their JMPI exam.
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MSG Dan Castaneda
SFC (Join to see) - That is incorrect. I was a JM instructor for two USASOC JM classes and we only taught one parachute. The MC-6. and no they are not better qualified than the one I went to.
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Hanging in a harness, up in the air, and allowing people several seconds to shoot at you is not a healthy way to start a battle. On the other hand I was in more than one Huey that took rounds that if had hit the engine probably would have killed all on board from the crash. Point being ... going into battle is a very, very, very dangerous thing to do .. even if you are diving a VW Bus with Grateful Dead stickers on it. So get the jump wings .. you won;t regret it!
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SAFE, Neither, wrong line of work for safe. I have both and both have merits as well as detractions. MET-T answers the questions. a Hot LZ will suck either way what is the mission, how much cover and concealment can you expect, what are you bringing in with you? Fixed wing tend to be more predictable and cannot manuver very much and need a large fairly flat empty plot of land, Rotor can do more manuvers and no one, not even the pilots really know where the chaulk will actually leave, which is why the false insertions before and after the actual drop off, smaller LZ gives more choices as well
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PVT Mark Brown
I would have said Airborne but after reading you reply I think I have to along with airmobile, makes sense. There was a reason that there was only one parachute insertion in Vietnam.
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SGT Eric Knutson
PVT Mark Brown - True,, which in large part why airmobile was devised, but you can put more troops faster on the ground with fewer air assets with airborne, and again, mission depending, if it is a surprise attack on the initial assault (D=Day good example) then Airborne MAY be the better choice, Airborne can also penetrate further the AASlt because fixed wing have a further range.Like I said MET-T will make that decision in the planning phase.
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I'm a LEG SSG but the comparisons just seem to be overall a wash they both are equally high risk and physically risky.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Robert Webster - IMO we will be bringing back lots of things if engage in combat in other than a COIN environment. I believe the senior leaders are shortsighted in doing away with LRS, pathfinder companies, and several other changes they have made based on 15+ years of the war on terror.
IMO, many of the changes were made because the further we have gotten into the war on terror, the more we as leaders have forgotten conventional warfare and operations on the liner battlefield. Russian and NK tactics will likely not be what we've been seeing from ISIS and other insurgents.
IMO, many of the changes were made because the further we have gotten into the war on terror, the more we as leaders have forgotten conventional warfare and operations on the liner battlefield. Russian and NK tactics will likely not be what we've been seeing from ISIS and other insurgents.
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SFC (Join to see)
PFC (Join to see) - There hasn't been a large scale ABN assault since Panama. Elements of the 75th Ranger Regiment, B co 3-504, and a few smaller slice elements jumped in Afghanistan between Oct 2001 and July 2004 and elements from 75th Ranger regiment, 173 ABN BDE, plus some slice elements jumped into Iraq during March 2003.
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PFC (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - do you for see us using any large scale airborne insertions if we go to war with Korea?
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I wish I could edit my question to ask which is more dangerous. One is falling from the sky and hopefully landing in close proximity to everyone. The other is flying a loud helicopter directly above the area or in vicinity of it and the repelling. This is more of my actual question.
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SFC (Join to see)
FYI, rappelling out of a helicopter is not fast roping. Still, the risk is mostly to the air frame which is more valuable than the soldier because it forces the aircraft to loiter stationary longer than is necessary.
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SSG Robert Webster
SSG (Join to see) - Forgive me asking but is the use of a Troop Ladder even taught any longer in Air Assault School?
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SPC Erich Guenther
SSG Robert Webster - Never heard of a troop ladder and I went through in 1986. Fast roping is a new technique as well and was not taught in 1986. As I understand Fast roping it is intended in areas of heavy vegitation or urban areas where the Chopper does not have enough space to safely land. I never heard anyone differentiate fast roping in a hot or cold LZ before. If the helo hovers or lands in a Hot LZ it is equally as vulnerable, IMV.
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SSG Robert Webster
SPC Erich Guenther - Fast roping actually was being taught in the US Army in 1986, just not at Fort Campbell's Air Assault School or any of the MTT POI courses run at the time.
Some units at Fort Bragg had been using it off and on since about 1983. And it was being taught to select groups (to include the DEA) at JOTC by the JOTB at Fort Sherman, Panama at least they were between 86 and 89, that last time that I was there.
If you have your old Air Assault Handbook and assorted other FM's and TM's used for Air Assault School, I believe that the Troop Ladder was still in the manuals at the time, at least it was in mine. It could be used with a variety of helicopters but then primarily with the CH-47. I think that in the Marine Corps and Navy they tend to call it a "Jacob's Ladder."
Some units at Fort Bragg had been using it off and on since about 1983. And it was being taught to select groups (to include the DEA) at JOTC by the JOTB at Fort Sherman, Panama at least they were between 86 and 89, that last time that I was there.
If you have your old Air Assault Handbook and assorted other FM's and TM's used for Air Assault School, I believe that the Troop Ladder was still in the manuals at the time, at least it was in mine. It could be used with a variety of helicopters but then primarily with the CH-47. I think that in the Marine Corps and Navy they tend to call it a "Jacob's Ladder."
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Jumping isn't exactly "safe", but it's still safer than driving to work down 85 S. I would definitely say jumping is probably more dangerous, but I can't speak for Air Assault as I don't the badge. Being an Infantryman I believe your job is more dangerous than either insertion method, so I think the better question would be "What is the preferred method of insertion?". Though than we get into the 82nd vs 101st debate. I can tell you I felt a lot more nervous on convoys in Kabul in an "up-armored" SUV than I ever did on any jump, to include night jumps (which are like driving down the freeway at 70 mph, and chucking the steering wheel out the window). At the end of the day I trust my Jumpmasters, training, and Riggers as we have some of the best in the Army in our unit.
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