Posted on Mar 6, 2015
What's The Problem With The Air Force Culture?
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EDIT: In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, I am leaving the original text of this post below so that you may see how I originally approached this question. When I first posted this, I was still a relative newcomer to RallyPoint. I was and still am curious about Air Force culture, working on Fort Snelling, MN, home of the 934th Air Wing, United States Air Force Reserve as well as the 133rd Tactical Fighter Squadron, Minnesota Air National Guard. In the past, I have worked jointly with elements of Air Force Security Forces and have always enjoyed strong working relationships. Aside from the usual banter across services, there is strong curiosity across the Army about you men and women in blue. However, this trend started to grow gradually more toxic in approximately 2007, around about the time SECDEF Rumsfeld leveled the charge that the Air Force wasn't engaged in the fight. That was an unfair charge; yet it hurt you as an institution nevertheless. Slowly, the talk I would hear among Soldiers in regards to Airmen turned more to contempt and bitterness. This wasn't right. And we all know that the Army's house has been far from perfect over the past decade plus; from Abu Ghraib to the apparent trend of dishonesty within our own Officer corps, we have our own crosses to bear without finding fault within your Force. So, if my original post below came across to you as sanctimonious or judgmental, that wasn't my intent. When I posted, I followed the recommendations to lead off with an attention-grabbing storyline, which I did. It's worked well! However, as I've refined my RP skills, I now know I would have dialed it back a notch or two! Thanks so much for allowing me to be a guest in your house and learn from you. I am thankful to you all, I am grateful for the connections I've made, and I'm damn glad you're on my side!
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Air Force
Culture
Airmen
Edited 9 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 124
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BLUF: What's wrong with Air Force culture? The Air Force is young and still forming its identity.
The Air Force is in the midst of an adolescent-style identity crisis. We are not Soldiers, we are not Marines and we are not an airline. We are the Air Force. Our mission is to take control of the skies and then reign destruction on our enemies from that high ground. Period. Dot. Do we do that well? Yes, absolutely.
Are we good at doing our mission because we are like Marines? No. Like Soldiers? No. An airline? No. We are good at our mission because we are Airmen. Period. Dot.
As the youngest service, we seek (and perhaps envy) the rich heritages of our elder services. As such, our Air Force leadership sometimes tries to cut corners by legislating it with contrived "creeds" or capital 'A's for Airmen. The trouble is, legislating heritage is a fools errand. Heritage and the respect of our peers is earned and developed over time.
Our culture was not forged at the Halls of Montezuma, Normandy or the summit of Mt. Suribachi. Ours is developing from operations such as, the Berlin Airlift, Linebackers I and II and the shock and awe of Desert Storm. Our history is different than our sister services and therefore, so is our culture. Embrace it, and develop it for our own purposes, not to appease the critiques of our elder services. I believe (hope) that "corporate" Air Force culture is merely a phase on our journey to maturity as a service.
I say take criticism in stride and be proud that no one brings air power to the fight better than American Airmen. That is our identity. Embrace the culture that makes us who we are. Would I want to be a Marine? No. I'm an Airman and proud of it. Do I respect Marines? Without a doubt.
The Air Force has maturing to do in terms of being comfortable in its own skin. I'm not sure the average Marine has the same respect for Airmen as I do Marines. That's okay. As we fight alongside our sister services in tomorrow's battles we will eventually find ourselves on the same mature, cultural plane as our peer services. Respect will come. So will creeds, slogans and traditions that are developed in the field, not the Pentagon.
The Air Force is in the midst of an adolescent-style identity crisis. We are not Soldiers, we are not Marines and we are not an airline. We are the Air Force. Our mission is to take control of the skies and then reign destruction on our enemies from that high ground. Period. Dot. Do we do that well? Yes, absolutely.
Are we good at doing our mission because we are like Marines? No. Like Soldiers? No. An airline? No. We are good at our mission because we are Airmen. Period. Dot.
As the youngest service, we seek (and perhaps envy) the rich heritages of our elder services. As such, our Air Force leadership sometimes tries to cut corners by legislating it with contrived "creeds" or capital 'A's for Airmen. The trouble is, legislating heritage is a fools errand. Heritage and the respect of our peers is earned and developed over time.
Our culture was not forged at the Halls of Montezuma, Normandy or the summit of Mt. Suribachi. Ours is developing from operations such as, the Berlin Airlift, Linebackers I and II and the shock and awe of Desert Storm. Our history is different than our sister services and therefore, so is our culture. Embrace it, and develop it for our own purposes, not to appease the critiques of our elder services. I believe (hope) that "corporate" Air Force culture is merely a phase on our journey to maturity as a service.
I say take criticism in stride and be proud that no one brings air power to the fight better than American Airmen. That is our identity. Embrace the culture that makes us who we are. Would I want to be a Marine? No. I'm an Airman and proud of it. Do I respect Marines? Without a doubt.
The Air Force has maturing to do in terms of being comfortable in its own skin. I'm not sure the average Marine has the same respect for Airmen as I do Marines. That's okay. As we fight alongside our sister services in tomorrow's battles we will eventually find ourselves on the same mature, cultural plane as our peer services. Respect will come. So will creeds, slogans and traditions that are developed in the field, not the Pentagon.
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Sgt William Straub Jr.
I think many in other older branches tend to diminish what they fee is a combat experience from airmen. I beg to differ. Yes Army and Marine grunts carried the heavy load in ground combat operations in Viet Nam, but do any of you young troops remember something called the Tet offensive of 68'. Many Air Force security personal gave their lives in airbase defense. There is a story of an Security Policeman on a guard tower being over run by VC. He killed as I remember the story 50 or 60 and as they were climbing the tower he was still killing them as they came through the hatch. It's my understanding that he called an airstrike on his own position, knowing he wasn't going to survive. There are stories galore about combat SP's all around SEA. I was in Thailand and found motor emplacement areas set up to attack the POL, Base Ops' and SP areas. We are a young service, hell I'm just 2 years younger than my Air Force. But I have the same pride in our young traditions as other branches have in theirs. And by the way, the US Army Air Corp became the USAF in 1947. Remember a little mission in 1942 when 16 B25 bombers (land based aircraft by the way) took off from the USS Hornet and had the first bombing attack on the Japanese homeland. It may not have been a strategic victory, but it sure let the Japanese know that they were not untouchable. Just remember that when the shit is hitting the fan, just look up at the A-10, come screaming down with a payload that makes Achmed shit his robe and messes up his goat girlfriend. And those guys flying bombers, A-10's F-22's F-35's are for the most part in their mid 20's. Gutsy young men. Brothers as much as the Marine or soldier patrolling Fallujah.
FLY HIGH!
FLY HIGH!
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SSgt Boyd Welch
Having served in the Army and the Air Force, I can say other than friendly banter from my "other service" brethren, we've shown and received respect for each other for the job we did. There is a certain camaraderie amongst those who have packed a ruck and weapon. But I've had just as much respect for the guys loading and maintaining the aircraft who dropped ordnance on the enemy pinning us down. Sometimes Air Force folks wish they had more of a battle story to tell, but I look at it in this way...because of the job each branch of the service does, someone gets to go home who might not have otherwise. Proud to have served alongside, Army, Marines, Air Force and Navy (did not get the chance to work with the Coast Guard).
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During an evening discussion (scotch was involved) with an Army friend at my house, he asked essentially the same question, except without the implication there was a PROBLEM with AF culture. He asked, "why is the AF so different culturally from the Army, when we recruit from the same pool and have the same objective...defense of our nation?"
There is one difference that drives several more...the shape of the force. The Marines need the majority of their E-1s and E-2s to separate after their first tour, in order to keep their force young, fit, a little crazed, and structurally flat. They have a very squat triangle, with LOTS of E-1s and 2 and very few E-8s and 9s, and that's best for a largely infantry, low tech, low personnel investment organization. The Army is next in organizational flatness. Navy is closer to the AF in that it spends more time and money training their enlisted troops to maintain airplanes and radar and manage datalinks and other high tech gear. The Air Force spends the most per Enlisted on technical training. It's expensive, and it takes YEARS to grow a 7-level aircraft maintainer. So the AF invests in better dorms, chow, base facilities, etc in order to RETAIN them. We need to keep a larger percentage of our enlisted through 2, 3, 4 tours, because our mission is a technical one, and we invest more time and money in our people. The AF structural triangle is taller and thinner than the other services because we need to retain technical experts. That's why the Army sometimes views the Air Force as technocrats, and some Air Force people view the Army as knuckle draggers. I reject the notion the Air Force ignores violations and suggest MAJ (Join to see) may be basing his view on a few bad apples. But the more relaxed attitude, better conditions and higher retention rates are all real.
There is one difference that drives several more...the shape of the force. The Marines need the majority of their E-1s and E-2s to separate after their first tour, in order to keep their force young, fit, a little crazed, and structurally flat. They have a very squat triangle, with LOTS of E-1s and 2 and very few E-8s and 9s, and that's best for a largely infantry, low tech, low personnel investment organization. The Army is next in organizational flatness. Navy is closer to the AF in that it spends more time and money training their enlisted troops to maintain airplanes and radar and manage datalinks and other high tech gear. The Air Force spends the most per Enlisted on technical training. It's expensive, and it takes YEARS to grow a 7-level aircraft maintainer. So the AF invests in better dorms, chow, base facilities, etc in order to RETAIN them. We need to keep a larger percentage of our enlisted through 2, 3, 4 tours, because our mission is a technical one, and we invest more time and money in our people. The AF structural triangle is taller and thinner than the other services because we need to retain technical experts. That's why the Army sometimes views the Air Force as technocrats, and some Air Force people view the Army as knuckle draggers. I reject the notion the Air Force ignores violations and suggest MAJ (Join to see) may be basing his view on a few bad apples. But the more relaxed attitude, better conditions and higher retention rates are all real.
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Col Joseph Lenertz
Very interesting story. My older brother enlisted in the Navy and was a catapult cable setter on the USS Forrestal when it burned. His post-Vietnam experience was, like so many, pretty horrible. It's always eye-opening to hear of the impact a negative experience can have, especially early in one's life. My own defiance and stubbornness drove me to attend the USAF Academy in 1980 and (unsuccessfully) fight the system for years before I wised up. I'm happy to report I was able to lead a rewarding and positive life in the AF, through many deployments and conflicts (there are no wars anymore), and retire with my family intact and together. I'm also pleased to hear your wise choices have led you to such a fine calling.
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Sgt William Straub Jr.
Right on the button Colonel, we train to maintain. Air Force wants their personnel to stay. Treat them like men and give them respect and it's easier to keep them in the fold.
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Coming from the Corps to the Air Force I have seen vast differences in culture, attitude and discipline compared to the Corps. And one of the hardest things for me was dealing with the difference. But I also have seen very hard work from these same AF individuals to complete the mission at hand and get the job done. Could they be a little more fit, pay attention to proper uniform wear and be more disciplined? Yes, they could but they know their job and how to do it well. The Air Force does have their bad asses, Special Operations Weather Team (SOWT), Tactical Air Control Party (TACP), Air Force Combat Control Teams, (Combat Controller, CCT), Pararescuemen ( better known as PJs).
I am a Marine will always be a Marine but am just as proud of my time in the Air Force.
I am a Marine will always be a Marine but am just as proud of my time in the Air Force.
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SrA (Join to see)
Thing is, we tend to work hard- but play harder. I am unsure of how other branches work, for I have been strictly AF my entire time in the military, and yes I understand that we (AF) do some / a lot of things that other branches do not agree with when it comes to culture, standards, etc.- but in the end, the mission being the only thing that counts, kick back and relax- enjoy yourself, and your decision, to switch to the blue!
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MSgt Michael Vassallo
Maybe I've been retired too long. Active Duty Air Force from 1974 to 1997. The history may not be as long as the other services. That has to do with when the technology that created this service became available. There is no doubt the US Air Force is in control of the skys above the battlefield. I spent 8 of my 22 years in Joint Service and NATO assignments. Learned a lot about the Army Especially my time at Bragg and Ft Huachuca, the Marine Corps at Pendelton and Okinawa, Navy with a short 6 month cruise on the Mt Whitney, and some time at NSA Naples. I am pround of all my brothers and sisters and wether you are a grunt, dog face, jarhead, leatherneck, squid, bubblehead, Zoomie or whatever else you want to call eachother when push came to shove it all comes down to the Red, White and Blue. I for one will stand tall with weapon in hand with any other like minded serviceman, woman or veteran. We all signed that blank check to include our lives and wether called to do it or not we served well and with honor. Considering the Air Force is basically the smallest in numbers of the services, we have Senior NCO's doing jobs Warrent Officers do in other services and in many cases E-5 & E-6's doing what E-7's do in the Army is enough to realize all the services have a great job to do. I will continue to support them and why I gave up a good paying civilian job to work at the VA to continue helping my brothers and sisters any way I can. We are not in this for a chest full of ribbons & medals, it is not a competition for who has the most MOH recipiants it is about believing in and serving this great country and the people who live here. That is why we call it a SERVICE. We are all one family with blood shared all over the world. When one serviceman gets hurt we all feel it, if you don't turn in your uniform for some civilian attire and leave the service to those who care, those who respect those that went before us and those that will follow. I hope someday a young serviceman will come visit me and say thanks for your service, just like we do to our WWII and other veterans now. OK done with the soap box. now Straightenup FLY right, Stay Strong and above all Stand Tall with no shame. GOD Bless.
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Each service is "different" neither better nor worse, but different, in various ways.
For example, the Air Force doesn't have NCOs at the E4 rank at all. The "Buck" Sergeant rank disappeared in 1991, which changes the way they approach leadership, in ways similar to the way the Army does with the Specialist rank. The USMC/USN/USCG E4 paygrades are NCO without a divide, and for me, I've always looked at the "same pay, less responsibilities" thing as odd.
The USAF however, as a culture is the most technically focused. The best comparison I can come up with is this.
My first unit was a grunt battalion in the Fleet Marine Force. It was focused on operations & training (in support of operations). My second unit was at Quantico, which is essentially a training & education base.
When I got to Quantico, I was told, and later had to tell others "This is not the Fleet." The focus is different. The mission is different. How you interact with people has to adjust accordingly.
The USAF is kind of like that. The vast majority of what "they" do, isn't like what "we" do. So they're focus is shifted accordingly. Their mindsets & cultures are built around that. But, I look at the USN & US Army the same way. What works for you doesn't exactly work for us.
For example, the Air Force doesn't have NCOs at the E4 rank at all. The "Buck" Sergeant rank disappeared in 1991, which changes the way they approach leadership, in ways similar to the way the Army does with the Specialist rank. The USMC/USN/USCG E4 paygrades are NCO without a divide, and for me, I've always looked at the "same pay, less responsibilities" thing as odd.
The USAF however, as a culture is the most technically focused. The best comparison I can come up with is this.
My first unit was a grunt battalion in the Fleet Marine Force. It was focused on operations & training (in support of operations). My second unit was at Quantico, which is essentially a training & education base.
When I got to Quantico, I was told, and later had to tell others "This is not the Fleet." The focus is different. The mission is different. How you interact with people has to adjust accordingly.
The USAF is kind of like that. The vast majority of what "they" do, isn't like what "we" do. So they're focus is shifted accordingly. Their mindsets & cultures are built around that. But, I look at the USN & US Army the same way. What works for you doesn't exactly work for us.
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Sgt Mark Ramos
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS I agree with your point, different missions, explains the root of MAJ (Join to see)'s question. I've been out for 25 years and things have changed a lot. But I've also gained perspective on my experiences that are different now than when I was in. As a young airman stationed at Kadena AB, I really did not like the Marines much. Off base, even at our Airmen's Club, on the weekends they almost always confronted us, and they always traveled in larger groups. But, I had a few Marine friends and we all thought it sucked how their dorm rooms, facilities, and chow halls were much worse than ours. Over the years I've realized why all that is and have much respect for the US Marines.
Regarding the Buck Sergeant rank, One of my best experiences in the Air Force was the day my star turned silver. I felt like I was no longer invisible and treated like an adult again. I welcomed the new responsibility and didn't care that the pay was the same as the day before.
Regarding the Buck Sergeant rank, One of my best experiences in the Air Force was the day my star turned silver. I felt like I was no longer invisible and treated like an adult again. I welcomed the new responsibility and didn't care that the pay was the same as the day before.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Mark Ramos Joining the NCO ranks is generally a huge deal. The expectations change so dramatically, instantly.
On the Marine Corps side, going from Lance to Cpl, the assumption that you need supervision just disappears. You've got things under control, whether it's a 4 man working party for a 100 man working party. Just being able to definitively answer the question when someone ask "who's in charge here?" - "I am, Sir, what do you need?" without having them ask where your NCO is. When we pin on Sgt.. it's even crazier.. because no one knows if you've been in 3 years or 12 years. All they see is 3 huge stripes.
On the Marine Corps side, going from Lance to Cpl, the assumption that you need supervision just disappears. You've got things under control, whether it's a 4 man working party for a 100 man working party. Just being able to definitively answer the question when someone ask "who's in charge here?" - "I am, Sir, what do you need?" without having them ask where your NCO is. When we pin on Sgt.. it's even crazier.. because no one knows if you've been in 3 years or 12 years. All they see is 3 huge stripes.
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SSgt James Guy
I was a Buck Sergeant and was proud to be considered an NCO. For 10 months I worked in a Command Post specialized Comm Center (PIACCS) of which when it was started, I became the NCOIC and had to recruit another staff member, train him, write SOP's etc until an E-5 arrived to take over as it was an E-5 Slot.
I know the grunts in the field had a rough job and many think we had it plus. In my 4 years active duty my main schedule was double backs. 2 Mids, 2 swings and 2 days. 6 shifts in 5 days. When the F-4's came flying in, I don't think the ground troops complained.
I know the grunts in the field had a rough job and many think we had it plus. In my 4 years active duty my main schedule was double backs. 2 Mids, 2 swings and 2 days. 6 shifts in 5 days. When the F-4's came flying in, I don't think the ground troops complained.
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Maj (Join to see)
Well said! I agree that the mindset changes with the mission even within the AF. When you move from a group of Ops folks to support folks there is a huge difference in the way we operate. Going from a Medical Group to an Airborne Air Control Squadron was a huge culture change!
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MAJ Matthew Arnold
But seriously folks, my limited direct contact with the USAF has only been positive and professional. I think they are great they way they are and the best at what they do. I told all my kids to join the Air Force. (None of them listened.)
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SSgt Dennis Watkins
in 1980 my dad who was an Army Veteran from the 60's told me if I joined the Army he would disown me, he said "the USAF had the best chowhalls, barracks and when they went tdy they stayed in hotels". So, I joined the USAF and did my 20, the MCPeak years were the worst with Rivot Workforce, and every other new program that the next General and Chief of Staff came up with. I did two tours in Desert Storm one at Daharan (just before my building at Kobar Towers got blown up & many friends got hurt that night) then a tour at Prince Sultan Airbase where we shared the Base with the Army Patriot Missile Battery, they were good people. When I retired in 2000 my LT asked me to extend just as Iraq was starting up and me and my buddy that was retiring that month both laughed, the Lt agreed and he was getting out that year as well. The morale and retention of mid-level technicians in 2000 at McChord AFB was the lowest I had seen in my 20 years I hope someday the USAF and other branches get back to the camaraderie and esprit de corps we had in the Regan years and we knew the CIC had our back.
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MAJ (Join to see), I guess I will be the first from Big Blue to answer.
The AF as a service has had a issue with "culture" since its inception. The only thing that is an institutional constant is that of "change." Speaking directly to culture, this is something that has been continuously critiqued both internally and externally.
Here is an example of our culture or really lack thereof by one of the AF's biggest critics:
http://www.jqpublicblog.com/service-culture-youre-wrong/
In my experience, it is not a matter that the AF is not "caring" about "standards, regulations, and policies" in fact, walk on any flight line and ask them about what happens when an "capital A" Airmen is found not using a T.O., I assure you, you do NOT want to be that Airmen. Yet there are, rightly or wrongly, some standards are not enforced as rigorously as others. The sister service perception can also be due to the simple fact that our "standards, regulations, and policies" are quite different then our counterparts.
CMSgt (Join to see), CMSgt James Nolan, Capt Brandon Charters
The AF as a service has had a issue with "culture" since its inception. The only thing that is an institutional constant is that of "change." Speaking directly to culture, this is something that has been continuously critiqued both internally and externally.
Here is an example of our culture or really lack thereof by one of the AF's biggest critics:
http://www.jqpublicblog.com/service-culture-youre-wrong/
In my experience, it is not a matter that the AF is not "caring" about "standards, regulations, and policies" in fact, walk on any flight line and ask them about what happens when an "capital A" Airmen is found not using a T.O., I assure you, you do NOT want to be that Airmen. Yet there are, rightly or wrongly, some standards are not enforced as rigorously as others. The sister service perception can also be due to the simple fact that our "standards, regulations, and policies" are quite different then our counterparts.
CMSgt (Join to see), CMSgt James Nolan, Capt Brandon Charters
Service Culture: You’re Doing it Wrong
Every Air Force Chief of Staff yearns to leave an indelible mark on the service. Seven years ago, General T. Michael Moseley chose to spend his dime on “reinvigorating a warrior ethos,” though he a…
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TSgt (Join to see)
TSgt Joshua Copeland it all makes so much sense! It was composed entirely via email with no one reading it out loud until it was unveiled!!!
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1stSgt Donald Caldwell
Most Airmen i worked with see themselves as an aircraft mechanic first, whatever rank they are second. On the flightline only getting the aircraft ready for the mission is important. E-1 to E-6 work side by side to do the repairs.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Great article. I have been in a little over 16 years and I have seen the culture change. The baseball caps of unity, the "we are a business" blues Monday-Thursday, the creed, the changing of the "Hap Arnold" wings. The AF is young and we are slowly coming into our own. I think of us as the youngest sibling of a large family. We see our older brothers and want to emulate them while still being an individual. Which is hard. And we will make "mistakes", but we will keep trying. But above all, we are innovative and resilient. We will figure it out...eventually. :)
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
MSgt (Join to see), did you really have to say Above All? Is that because "No one comes close" to "Aiming High" like the Air Force? LOL
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Based off of conversations with some of my Air Force friends, I believe that the "problem" is a culture that views the Air Force as more of a corporation focused on weapons systems than a warfighting service branch focused on Airmen. When you add a zero-defect mindset that demands perfection constantly, it handcuffs leaders. Acceptable risk becomes an alien concept, initiative is lost, and leaders become very fearful of "rocking the boat." Combine all this with a heavy dose of bureaucracy and you have a recipe for low job satisfaction, low morale, and leaders who are either more concerned with themselves or fearful of failure. Fear of failure leads to paralysis and missed oppportunities. The Force becomes stagnant with time and the individual feels that their contribution matters little. This is just my synopsis as an outsider looking in.
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CPT (Join to see)
I know the Army can't/won't take the A-10 TSgt Joshua Copeland. We don't have Air Force money to buy airplanes when sequestration is cutting deep into our strength and reducing funds for training. I'm still not sure how the Air Force can buy F-35s and start looking for another long range strategic bomber during this period of fiscal uncertainty, but that's none of my business!
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
CPT (Join to see), the issue with the LRS-B is that the birds they will be replacing will pushing 70 years old on the actual airframes. We have documented cases of 4 generations of the same family flying BUFFs and at least 3 generations of the same family flying the exact same BUFF. Our other long range nuke capable bomber runs 8 hours of repair time for every 1 hour of flight time just for the paint and is a low density high demand aircraft. We wont talk about the F35, we cant even get the F22 bugs worked out.
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A1C (Join to see)
Well from my personal point of view it seems Airmen and NCOs have no moral which reflects in their job performance and uniform because they have no pride and just want to get the day over with so they can do whatever. This is what I've seen atleast at my base and it seems like not many people here want to boots moral they just want to do there 12 months and to their follow on.
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SGT Matthew Einsla
TSgt Joshua Copeland - That would take huge restructuring, budget requirements, training, facilities? We're not set up to fly fixed wing aircraft, and certainly not near-obsolete ones. It'd be stupid to take them, and it's the Airforces job anyhow.
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I see a lot of good conversations and points here but please define discipline and what regulations specifically. When necessary Airmen are corrected but it is not hard to wear the uniform, shave and keep a haircut. Sergeant is an accepted term from E5-E8, Sir or Maam is acceptable also. We do not stand at parade rest for higher ranking NCOs nor is there a requirement to stay at attention when addressing an officer (situation depending). The discipline that I have seen is a SrA telling another service officer that regardless of rank they will not break the rules. I personally had to explain to another service that classified confidential material was still considered classified and could not be left out, I think USAF has more people at all ranks dealing with more classified (cannot confirm this). As leaders we are all taught different ways to lead and utilize different methods but unless necessary the directing style is not normally used. The "relaxed" atmosphere that we have leads to a level of comfort and openness and encourages ideas from all ranks. When I worked with the Army all the Pvts and SPCs did not know how to act around me because I constantly would put them at ease and tried to create an area where they could feel free to express themselves including bitching moaning and my favorite question why is this such and such. So I guess it comes down to what are your expectations and are they the same. All my Airmen met the expectations that have been set upon them and corrected when they do not comply, but I will say my standards my differ from another SNCO/another section/another career field, etc...
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MSgt (Join to see)
MSgt Mike Mikulski , think you might have misunderstood my earlier post. I was taking a jab at SAC and the nuke dropped on SC was during the cold war. Biggest difference between our generation of Airman I think is time and money. We are a lot leaner today and don't have time to waste on petty chores for the Airmen. Most of my Airmen have BS in communications, advanced certifications and are trained at a very high level. They are extremely intelligent and are hard to keep in the career. If I do not treat them with the respect they deserve and as part of the team, which they have deserved, they will leave. It may be a difference in career fields but in mine there is no "good enough for government" because a simple mistake can take down whole communication capabilities and being that we are AFCENT and the only team dropping bombs daily this could cause a big issue. Again it may be a career field thing but in comm, it is the junior troops that are continuously getting the better training just to keep up with the pace of system changes and leads to a very mature Airman that does not need to learn their place, because they have already earned it through value added skills to a very advanced team.
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CMSgt (Join to see)
I do have ot make a corrections; it is required to stand at parade rest when talking to at least SNCOs and it is required to stand at attention when speaking with officers unless told to stand at ease. The problem is some career fields are more lax than others and do not require adherence to basic standards. If a SNCO or officer walks into my facility, all of my folks will be on their feet. Now concerning the original post, the problem is the ANG and Reserves not enforcing uniform and customs and courtesies. I was an instructor and taught NCOS from ANG and AFRC and I was constantly reminding the them to get a haircut, blouse their boots, etc.
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MSgt (Join to see)
CMSgt (Join to see) is there a reference for standing at parade rest for SNCOs and at attention for officers? I have only seen AFI 34-1201 Protocol Chapter 8 Customs and Courtesies which requires standing at attention for a senior officer but does not state for others. It does state juniors will recognize a senior's presence and be courteous. My experience is dependent upon unit but no hard rules of instruction. If I am missing something, please let me know so I can fix myself and others.
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TSgt Gwen Walcott
Don't know what fantasy world the chief is coming from. I didn't stand parade rest for any zebra nor attention for the commissioned crew ---- and if any dick came into my section and demanded such crap I would first request he remove himself post haste or encourage him at the end of my M1911 while I got on the line with JCS to have him taken into custody for disrupting the mission. (And had to do that only once in my career)
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I don't take the Air Force advertisement as competitive with the Marine Corps, Army, Navy, or Coast Guard. I take it as that service bragging that it's the best Air Force in the world . . . . and it is. People attracted to the respective services may be slightly swayed by the advertisement, but ultimately, grunts will be attracted to the Army or Marines, sailors to the Navy or Coast Guard, and wannabe pilots (had to get that in there! :) ) will join the Air Force.
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GySgt (Join to see)
Interesting all the comments below more honing in on the culture. As Jarheads, we used to joke about the Air Force troops living in hotels, getting catered meals, and going to the golf club while in country. But we also took advantage of the Air Force. We would go to their clubs and have a lot of fun (I'll leave it at that), eat at their chow halls, and go to their post exchanges (do they call them a mall in the Air Force? LOL).
But as grunts go, while we seemed like we were jealous, we were actually pretty motivated about being more hard core.
The Air Force is the Air Force and they have their culture in the same manner as the other services. It works for them. I say enjoy your branch and then go enjoy their amenities! :)
But as grunts go, while we seemed like we were jealous, we were actually pretty motivated about being more hard core.
The Air Force is the Air Force and they have their culture in the same manner as the other services. It works for them. I say enjoy your branch and then go enjoy their amenities! :)
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MSgt Mike Rockwell
Well, I can say that I have stayed in 5-Star hotels and had some pretty good food at them all while "deployed", but then again, I have slept under Air Craft, in trucks, in the dirt, in tents ... it all balanced out in the end.
We used to joke that Marine Aviation had to go out and used buffers on the wings of their C-130's because they were so shiny, we just kept 'em flying ... hit the wash rack once and a while.
We used to joke that Marine Aviation had to go out and used buffers on the wings of their C-130's because they were so shiny, we just kept 'em flying ... hit the wash rack once and a while.
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
I was about to mention that. Most of my family are Marines...they seem to be tougher on their Air Wingers than the Air Force.
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MSgt Jim Pollock
I've seen this image many times and I love it. Steely eyes committed to her mission that involves horrifying firepower. Yet there's a youthful vulnerability that shines through. That Airman will do her job, and be humble about it. We should all aspire to such quiet professionalism.
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