Posted on Dec 14, 2018
What’s the proper way to correct someone when not saluting an officer?
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I was walking with a Navy LT and an Army Maj. (My hospital has both services) from the USO across the street to the hospital and a PFC passed and didn’t salute. I stopped and asked her, “Do enlisted soldiers not salute officers anymore?” The Maj. with me said I didn’t have to be so aggressive about it. What’s a better way of addressing it without coming off as aggressive?
Customs and Courtesies
Saluting
Enlisted
Officers
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 389
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politely excuse yourself and then go over to the service member who did not render a salute and take them to the side quietly and correct them by letting them know politely that they did not salute when they passed by the LT and the Major.
A trademark of a good NCO is to correct a problem with out creating one and fixing issues without making a scene or embarrassing someone. problems go away quicker and have less of chance to happen again when they can be corrected quickly and quietly and without embarrassment of JR Enlisted or JR NCO's or NCO's from any branch.
A trademark of a good NCO is to correct a problem with out creating one and fixing issues without making a scene or embarrassing someone. problems go away quicker and have less of chance to happen again when they can be corrected quickly and quietly and without embarrassment of JR Enlisted or JR NCO's or NCO's from any branch.
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CPT (Join to see)
I understand your point here. However if a junior enlisted has made it all of the way through AIT still doesn't salute, perhaps the correcting NCO needs to be a little less sensitive and a little more "fear of God" in their approach.
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SSG Byron Hewett
CPT (Join to see) - Sir its not necessary to put fear of God into anyone if you have been professional with them and it stolve the problem the 1st time.
It's when it becomes an ongoing problem when a correction needs to be made in a more appropriate way. Sir the first rule of being an NCO is to be professional 1st and that can be easily adjusted when circumstances require some adjust fire to correct an on going problem.
It's when it becomes an ongoing problem when a correction needs to be made in a more appropriate way. Sir the first rule of being an NCO is to be professional 1st and that can be easily adjusted when circumstances require some adjust fire to correct an on going problem.
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SGT James LeFebvre
CPT (Join to see) in this case, the one doing the correction is a SPC, just as junior enlisted as the offending PFC, so, "fear of God" approach would frankly get that SPC a chewing out from me. The way he actually approached it (the way I read it, YMMV) it comes off more as mild sarcasm.
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SFC Charles McVey Sr.
CPT (Join to see) - Back in my early days in the Army, while on foot patrol in downtown Ludwigsburg Germany I was not known for being genteel when making on the spot corrections. However that was in the 60's and we were not expected to be genteel and make allowances for the young soldiers feelings. On up in the mid 1980's is when I began to notice a decided change in over all attitude toward discipline and correcting behavior. I even had a Major ask me what I meant by bracing a young troop in the parade rest position while proceeded to chew him out for what the Major considered a minor lack of discipline. Being as at the time I was on duty as a Military Police officer, I very carefully explained to him that if you make them remember you and insure that they remember what they did that resulted in getting chewed out then it sticks. I also told him that if you make the correction for a "minor" infraction in such away that they will remember it then you do not have any major infractions. I ask him if that will be all Sir, he said yes I saluted did an about face and proceeded into the Provost Marshalls Office which is where I was originally headed, The PMO saw me from his window he stopped me and asked that the Major had wanted, I told him and he looked at me smiled and said "Carry on SGT". I saluted him and said yes Sir, Saluted did an about face and headed over to my desk to go over the previous shifts MPR's.
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If that particular Major thought your approach was aggressive, he/she must not spend any time around the enlisted set. Your approach would be considered "kid gloves" to many. The only thing I would recommend you change is the distance between you and prying ears before starting some wood line counseling.
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When I was a SrA (E4) a Maj and I were both approaching the same door from different angles. He was slightly behind me to my right. I was looking around and caught him in my peripheral vision. When I reached the door, he put his hand on my shoulder stopping me and said "Airman, you've been in long enough to know to salute an officer when you see one." I glanced down at his hand on my shoulder and said, "Sir, I believe you've been in long enough to know if you touch me without my permission that's considered assault." He stopped dumbfounded and I went inside and went about my business.
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MAJ Fred Peterman
Wouldn't allow a down vote. My 2 cents, if I was junior and was able to salute prior to entering, I would. The SrA was not a rank when I was in the USAF, USAFR. I had been a SGT, an NCO.
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SPC (Join to see) The Major you were escorting was correct, your on-the-spot correction was incorrect. If the Major heard you, your correction was not private. The quote you posted “Do enlisted soldiers not salute officers anymore?” was argumentative, condescending, and not inspirational. Please refer to FM 7-13-21, Chapter 3 "Duties, Responsibilities, and Authority of the Soldier", section "Inspections and Corrections" ; subsection "On-the-Spot Corrections" 3-44 through 3-46 as well as figures 3.1 and 3.2. I also would suggest a couple of quotes that I think are fitting in this situation: “Regardless of age or grade, Soldiers should be treated as mature individuals. They are engaged in an honorable profession and deserve to be treated as such.” GEN Bruce Clarke; "Correct errors in the use of judgment and initiative in such a way as to encourage the individual." FM 22-10, Leadership (1951); “He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them regard for himself, while he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect toward others, especially his inferiors, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself." MG John M. Schofield (all quotes from "Corrective Training/Corrective Action Guide for Leaders" NOV 2011 online at cybercoe.army.mil)
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1LT (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - Roger that sir! And out of 9 readers of my post, eight gave me a thumbs up (including an infantry LTC) and only one gave me a thumbs down. While I have less time in service than you, I spent three years of my eight years active duty at 7th Infantry Division (LIGHT) and learned from the Division CSM by his example while assigned to the G2.
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MAJ (Join to see)
1LT (Join to see) Tracking. But to keep things in proper perspective, while your response - telling the OP they were wrong - received 8 thumbs ups, the OP received more than 105 thumbs up responses - including several O6, O5, CSMs and SGMs.
Best of luck to you, John. It’s time for me to pull my reserve and punch out. I’m confident that the future of our Officers Corps rests in good hands. Keep choosing the hard right and avoiding the easy wrong and you’ll do just fine.
David
CPL - USMC
MSgt -USAFR
MAJ - USAR
Best of luck to you, John. It’s time for me to pull my reserve and punch out. I’m confident that the future of our Officers Corps rests in good hands. Keep choosing the hard right and avoiding the easy wrong and you’ll do just fine.
David
CPL - USMC
MSgt -USAFR
MAJ - USAR
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Morally right and legally right are two different things. I am not to suppose that I know what you're thinking. I am not to suppose that I am seeing for you. If you and I are walking side by side and *you* do not notice a salute-worthy opportunity am I required to point it out to you? Basically telling YOU how to do YOUR job?
I personally would have kept my mouth shut. Had I noticed the enlisted person later in my day to day walk, I would say "hey - you forgot to salute." But to deliberately make a pony show out of it would say that I have to show you, the officer, how to act. And as we all know, enlisted telling officers what to do doesn't end well professionally. Basically I'd be taking a pot-shot at you which is something that could escalate in a bad way.
I personally would have kept my mouth shut. Had I noticed the enlisted person later in my day to day walk, I would say "hey - you forgot to salute." But to deliberately make a pony show out of it would say that I have to show you, the officer, how to act. And as we all know, enlisted telling officers what to do doesn't end well professionally. Basically I'd be taking a pot-shot at you which is something that could escalate in a bad way.
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Sgt Michael Clifford
Welcome to the new politically correct Army of 2019. God save us from 2nt Lieutenants.
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You can begin making on-the-spot corrections by not seem aggressive by keeping it professional. Stop the Soldier, state the deficiency, the reference, and the standard.
Skip the rhetorical remarks that only serve to make you look asinine.
By the way, IMHO, the CPT or MAJ should have made the correction considering this infraction, and their correction of you was only necessary because they failed to act.
Skip the rhetorical remarks that only serve to make you look asinine.
By the way, IMHO, the CPT or MAJ should have made the correction considering this infraction, and their correction of you was only necessary because they failed to act.
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Disrespect should be corrected as aggressively as necessary... a Marine Officer wouldn't've been as nice as you were!
(but most Marines would've saluted automatically)
(but most Marines would've saluted automatically)
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1LT (Join to see)
LCpl Kenneth Heath In an Hospital environment, the SM may have had bad news about her own health, the health of a fellow soldier or loved one, or just lost a fellow soldier or loved one. While military bearing is a requirement, the totality of the situation may have facilitated the lapse in observing military customs and courtesies. (FYI, while stationed at a joint base, I made an on the spot correction to a PFC who missed the salute of an Army LTC. We are human, even Marines!)
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PO3 Donald Murphy
I'm honestly surprised saluting was allowed at all as its joint force and we all know that Sailors don't salute uncovered, indoors, etc.
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LCpl Kenneth Heath
1LT (Join to see) - Excuse are like assholes, Sir... everyone has one and they all stink! I stand by my statement with no caveats. Semper Fi.
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Well, those exact words probably sounded a little brash as an E4 to an E3. You are just as "enlisted" as that PFC. Maybe just an FYI you missed a salute would have been enough without the arrogance and showboating in front of the officers. If you had 3 up and 2 down, then maybe that would have been an appropriate response instead of looking like a cheese eating Specialist. JMO nothing personal.
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Perhaps it was the time period in which I served but had I failed to salute an officer, I'd have had trouble sitting down for a week or longer. The correction would have been intense, on the spot and loud... and the @$$ chewing would have been deserved. Hurt feelings? Has the military become snowflakes?
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I am a Marine Officer (Major as a matter of fact). I totally agree that such incidents should be handled at the time of it's occurrence.
I highly commend you handling the matter.
I highly commend you handling the matter.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
But WHO should handle it? If my officer eyes didn't see it, would I want you - enlisted - telling everyone that I don't know how to do my job? I'd tear you a new butthole if you questioned my visual acuity in public, right? Right and a wrong way to do everything. How much respect as a field officer would I have if my vision is in question? If we were walking side by side and you didn't notice, I have no idea whats going on in your brain. You might have important Major stuff that you're thinking about. So how am I to say "hey sir - you missed a salute."
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SPC (Join to see) Not to make too fine a point, but the (Army) Major was out of line. As an Enlisted you are responsible for good order and discipline at your level. Saluting is a sign of RESPECT.
This said, we don't teach the nature and manner of saluting anymore ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute)
I wonder if the (Army) Major is aware of these references, especially if an old Navy Chief can find them:
https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/customs_and_courtesies/about-saluting.shtml
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/AR%20600-25.pdf
I would, when you have this situation next time say:
- "Excuse me Private! Are you aware of AR 600-25?"
- If the answer, and it will be "No" simply say "AR 600-25 is the Personal General Order that deals with Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy. In paragraph 1–5 subparagraph (b) All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute."
- Are you aware of this General Order?" Again, the answer will be "No".
- "Private, it is your duty to recognize when, to whom and where to salute is that not correct?"
- They, if they have any sense, will say "Yes." "So private, you will recognize the two people are officers dressed as officers, correct?" Their answer, I hope will be, "Yes, they are officers."
- "Private, well then, I believe it is customary to render them a sharp and professional salute per Army regulations correct." Again, if they have any sense, they "Private will render a salute and an apology."
- At this point an officer worth a damn will say "Private, the Sgt should not have had to correct you. you know better, and I expect more. The Army cannot afford to let the Navy think we are slack, right. " (Taking advantage of the fact a Navy LT was also witness and stoking a little friendly rivalry.) If the Private has any sense, they will understand the Major is asking the private not to embarrass the US Army, especially in the presence of the US Navy and to be more alert.
Every moment, when appropriate should be teachable! You have to be instructive and to be instructive you have to know what you are doing. Knowing the saluting regs is well within you per view to know as I have demonstrated. Giving the Officer the chance take the high road and obtain "service loyalty" from the young troop and, at the expense of the Navy LT, champion a little solidarity is not a bad thing to achieve.
You then - Make your point in a very professional manner; while, you officer the Senior Officer, the chance to be a senior officer and demonstrate leadership. If that same officer demonstrates a lad of leadership a 2nd time in a similar situation set-up an appoint with your Command Senior Enlisted (CSM, CMC, who ever) and ask them for guidance. Usually, the very good Command Sgt Majors or Command Master Chiefs will see this as a teachable moment for the CO and XO and ask, quietly for their help to reinforce this custom and courtesy up and down the chain.
If that path (speaking to the CSM or CMS) is broken between the CSM/CMC and the CO/XO, I am not sure what to tell you. So, unless a violation of the UMCJ involving a verbal threat is being communicated, being instructive with the force of knowing your regs and using them to teach is a kind of discipline I grew-up with. Of course being a smart or arrogant ass in knowing the regs is not positive either and never works. Yet, being calm and instructive in a garrison situation gets around when done right! A good piece of advice I got very early in my Navy career was that you dit not have to know everything, but you did need to know how to find anything you'd need. For me that was mastering the Navy/ Marine Corps SSIC (Standard Subject Identification Code) system that organized regulations. It was a lot simpler to know that the 6000 group was Medicine and Dentistry and 1000 was personnel, etc. From there I could take 15 mins a day to "brush up on" something I did not do every day. But, I can assure you that EVERY DAY I rendered a least ONE salute, if not more. Does not take a genius to the VERY simple VERY VERY WELL and the to make the impossible look easy when you have mastered the SIMPLE. Lots of lessons here!
COL Mikel J. Burroughs; Maj Marty Hogan; COL Lee Flemming; SMSGT Gerald "Doc" Thomas; SCPO Morris Ramsey; Lt Col Charlie Brown; Maj Alea Nadeem; LTC (Join to see); LTC Jason Mackay; Maj William W. 'Bill' Price; LTC Stephen C.; LTC Stephen F.; MSgt Robert "Rock" Aldi; SSG Carlos Madden; SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth; MSgt Paul Connors (Publishing); MSgt (Join to see)
This said, we don't teach the nature and manner of saluting anymore ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute)
I wonder if the (Army) Major is aware of these references, especially if an old Navy Chief can find them:
https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/customs_and_courtesies/about-saluting.shtml
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/AR%20600-25.pdf
I would, when you have this situation next time say:
- "Excuse me Private! Are you aware of AR 600-25?"
- If the answer, and it will be "No" simply say "AR 600-25 is the Personal General Order that deals with Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy. In paragraph 1–5 subparagraph (b) All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service entitled to the salute."
- Are you aware of this General Order?" Again, the answer will be "No".
- "Private, it is your duty to recognize when, to whom and where to salute is that not correct?"
- They, if they have any sense, will say "Yes." "So private, you will recognize the two people are officers dressed as officers, correct?" Their answer, I hope will be, "Yes, they are officers."
- "Private, well then, I believe it is customary to render them a sharp and professional salute per Army regulations correct." Again, if they have any sense, they "Private will render a salute and an apology."
- At this point an officer worth a damn will say "Private, the Sgt should not have had to correct you. you know better, and I expect more. The Army cannot afford to let the Navy think we are slack, right. " (Taking advantage of the fact a Navy LT was also witness and stoking a little friendly rivalry.) If the Private has any sense, they will understand the Major is asking the private not to embarrass the US Army, especially in the presence of the US Navy and to be more alert.
Every moment, when appropriate should be teachable! You have to be instructive and to be instructive you have to know what you are doing. Knowing the saluting regs is well within you per view to know as I have demonstrated. Giving the Officer the chance take the high road and obtain "service loyalty" from the young troop and, at the expense of the Navy LT, champion a little solidarity is not a bad thing to achieve.
You then - Make your point in a very professional manner; while, you officer the Senior Officer, the chance to be a senior officer and demonstrate leadership. If that same officer demonstrates a lad of leadership a 2nd time in a similar situation set-up an appoint with your Command Senior Enlisted (CSM, CMC, who ever) and ask them for guidance. Usually, the very good Command Sgt Majors or Command Master Chiefs will see this as a teachable moment for the CO and XO and ask, quietly for their help to reinforce this custom and courtesy up and down the chain.
If that path (speaking to the CSM or CMS) is broken between the CSM/CMC and the CO/XO, I am not sure what to tell you. So, unless a violation of the UMCJ involving a verbal threat is being communicated, being instructive with the force of knowing your regs and using them to teach is a kind of discipline I grew-up with. Of course being a smart or arrogant ass in knowing the regs is not positive either and never works. Yet, being calm and instructive in a garrison situation gets around when done right! A good piece of advice I got very early in my Navy career was that you dit not have to know everything, but you did need to know how to find anything you'd need. For me that was mastering the Navy/ Marine Corps SSIC (Standard Subject Identification Code) system that organized regulations. It was a lot simpler to know that the 6000 group was Medicine and Dentistry and 1000 was personnel, etc. From there I could take 15 mins a day to "brush up on" something I did not do every day. But, I can assure you that EVERY DAY I rendered a least ONE salute, if not more. Does not take a genius to the VERY simple VERY VERY WELL and the to make the impossible look easy when you have mastered the SIMPLE. Lots of lessons here!
COL Mikel J. Burroughs; Maj Marty Hogan; COL Lee Flemming; SMSGT Gerald "Doc" Thomas; SCPO Morris Ramsey; Lt Col Charlie Brown; Maj Alea Nadeem; LTC (Join to see); LTC Jason Mackay; Maj William W. 'Bill' Price; LTC Stephen C.; LTC Stephen F.; MSgt Robert "Rock" Aldi; SSG Carlos Madden; SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth; MSgt Paul Connors (Publishing); MSgt (Join to see)
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LTC Stephen F.
Well my friend CPO Nate S.. I expect we will have to agree to disagree on this. It seems the ranking officer [in this case the O-4 Major] was being gracious and diffusing the strange circumstances of a SPC drilling down a PFC for not rendering appropriate customs and courtesies.
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CPO Nate S.
LTC Stephen F. - Sir, I was actually, unclear as to if the O-4 spoke to the SPC at the time of the incident or after. So, my perspective was that the SPC was asking for future advise. If the O-4 felt the situation was threatening at some level, then the O-4 was correct to engage. Frankly, had I been the O-4, I might have popped them both tall and said...
"PVT, (in a clam voice) it is important you pay attention to your surroundings. I hate to pop you both tall, but you both left me no choice. PVT, you for not paying attention to your surroundings despite whatever else you were thinking about in order to not render a proper salute. SPC, because you should have rendered a 'by your leave sir, rendering a salute' and then pealed off to see 1st see if the PVT was OK and inquire about the lack of a salute. I really hate, that I needed to do this. Do either of you have a question? (they would not) Ok, stand easy. Seriously was that needed by either of you? (again their collective response should have been 'No sir') Ok, I hope we all learned something positive. Attention, (render a salute) dismissed. (letting the PVT go about their day or if they were experiencing an issue figuring out if help was needed."
Sir, we may well disagree, and as two seasoned veterans that is expected. There have been few, very very few officers that I believed personally did not deserve my salute, because of their character and how they treated people in general, but I still rendered a solid one regardless. You are also very correct, that if the situation was over zealous on the part of the SPC, the O-4 may have needed to step in, but SPC's intent needs to be supported, not his actions if they were out of line, but his intent. In this case there are still teachable moments for all!
Frankly, because SPC (Join to see) has the courage to ask in open forum, he is working to be a better NCO, and for that I very much commend him. When an Officer or NCO don't seek guidance to improve, they are suspect to me. So, this situation, I think was not entirely clear. I think enough has been spoken about regarding the incident. I would say SPC Ball has gotten quite and education about the different perspectives via this forum. Again, what 1LT (Join to see) quoted about GEN Bruce Clarke; "Correct errors in the use of judgment and initiative in such a way as to encourage the individual" is spot on. Also, CSM Richard StCyr make a good reinforcing point about not making an ass of himself.
Encouraging both to be squared-away is not an unfair or disrespectful thing to expect. As such, it is because of the expected professionalism that “Regardless of age or grade, Soldiers (sailors, airmen and marines too) should be treated as mature individuals. " Precisely because "They are engaged in an honorable profession and deserve to be treated as such,” is why discipline even in doing the simplest of things, such as rendering a salute, lets others know you are paying attention to detail. Details, that when ignored can get you and other killed because of such distractions. It is the little things, that often count more!
SPC (Join to see) I have not seen you respond to these discussions. So please share with us three or four things you have learned and will put into place the next time to have this situation.
"PVT, (in a clam voice) it is important you pay attention to your surroundings. I hate to pop you both tall, but you both left me no choice. PVT, you for not paying attention to your surroundings despite whatever else you were thinking about in order to not render a proper salute. SPC, because you should have rendered a 'by your leave sir, rendering a salute' and then pealed off to see 1st see if the PVT was OK and inquire about the lack of a salute. I really hate, that I needed to do this. Do either of you have a question? (they would not) Ok, stand easy. Seriously was that needed by either of you? (again their collective response should have been 'No sir') Ok, I hope we all learned something positive. Attention, (render a salute) dismissed. (letting the PVT go about their day or if they were experiencing an issue figuring out if help was needed."
Sir, we may well disagree, and as two seasoned veterans that is expected. There have been few, very very few officers that I believed personally did not deserve my salute, because of their character and how they treated people in general, but I still rendered a solid one regardless. You are also very correct, that if the situation was over zealous on the part of the SPC, the O-4 may have needed to step in, but SPC's intent needs to be supported, not his actions if they were out of line, but his intent. In this case there are still teachable moments for all!
Frankly, because SPC (Join to see) has the courage to ask in open forum, he is working to be a better NCO, and for that I very much commend him. When an Officer or NCO don't seek guidance to improve, they are suspect to me. So, this situation, I think was not entirely clear. I think enough has been spoken about regarding the incident. I would say SPC Ball has gotten quite and education about the different perspectives via this forum. Again, what 1LT (Join to see) quoted about GEN Bruce Clarke; "Correct errors in the use of judgment and initiative in such a way as to encourage the individual" is spot on. Also, CSM Richard StCyr make a good reinforcing point about not making an ass of himself.
Encouraging both to be squared-away is not an unfair or disrespectful thing to expect. As such, it is because of the expected professionalism that “Regardless of age or grade, Soldiers (sailors, airmen and marines too) should be treated as mature individuals. " Precisely because "They are engaged in an honorable profession and deserve to be treated as such,” is why discipline even in doing the simplest of things, such as rendering a salute, lets others know you are paying attention to detail. Details, that when ignored can get you and other killed because of such distractions. It is the little things, that often count more!
SPC (Join to see) I have not seen you respond to these discussions. So please share with us three or four things you have learned and will put into place the next time to have this situation.
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