Posted on May 5, 2016
What would you do if you knew a MAJ submitted a fraudulent DA Form 705 APFT & DA Form 5500 Body Composition in a packet?
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Here is a point of reference:
Two female Soldiers >40 years old:
Soldier A - 63” tall 126 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 26% Army Wellness Center Pod: 27%
Soldier B - 64” tall 173 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 25% Army Wellness Center Pod: Refused
Discuss.....
Here is a point of reference:
Two female Soldiers >40 years old:
Soldier A - 63” tall 126 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 26% Army Wellness Center Pod: 27%
Soldier B - 64” tall 173 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 25% Army Wellness Center Pod: Refused
Discuss.....
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 204
I've called out NCO's and Officers on suspicious documents before. One Senior NCO wanted me to sign off on his 2-1 and 705 for an upcoming board. I looked at his 705 and couldn't recognize who supposedly signed and initialed his test. When confronted about it he kind of changed the subject and went to someone else. I brought this to my commands attention but unfortunately they did nothing about it. This Soldier has never taken an APFT with the unit but someone manages to get updated scores in DTMS and although he has a bigger stomach then Santa Claus he consistently manages to pass his tape. (By a good margin too). I make a point to take a test with my unit so that there can be no perception of bias.
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CSM (Join to see)
SFC Molina,
Thank you for having the courage to speak up. Do not let someone else's lack of Values make you compromise yours. EVER.
Thank you for having the courage to speak up. Do not let someone else's lack of Values make you compromise yours. EVER.
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I once had my 1sg tell me to put in medpros that I have her an immunization that I hadn't given her. When I told her no, she asked why. I told her my integrity wouldn't let me lie like that. Six months later I went off on an NCO while off duty. When he told her he wanted me to get an AR15 for disrespect, she told him I must have had a good reason because I had more integrity than anyone she'd ever met. She called me into her office to ask my side of the story. When I told her what was going on she launched an investigation that ended up with that NOV in Levenworth. Lack of integrity in anyone wearing a uniform pisses me off.
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CSM (Join to see)
So take that anger and transform it into a plan of what to do. What would you do? What would a reasonable person do?
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CPL Stormi Miller
I took that anger and started educating the younger medics on integrity. They were scared to say no to something like that to someone that outranked them. I would calmly tell them that rank did not excuse someone from military health requirements, and didn't protect their health. They were afraid they'd get written up. I explained to them that they couldn't get in trouble for not following an unlawful order. It took a while every time I had to teach the younger medics, but eventually all medics that worked with me understood why they shouldn't put something in the computer that they hadn't done just because some rank told them to do it.
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She shouldn't be able to go. She is an integrity violation. She was selected falsely
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC Andrew Dehaven - Just because it's done, doesn't make it right. And if you are aware it's being done, then it should be addressed. That's the problem.
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CSM (Join to see)
SPC Andrew Dehaven - I have seen all kinds of things. What have you seen done that were integrity violations and what was done about it?
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This is clearly UNSAT. Nobody in this forum will say that this is what right looks like.
Complicating things is her rank and ability to imply difficulty on the (almost certainly) lower ranking members that administer the test and record-keeping. I have little doubt that the Major has done this before, and gotten away with it before.
The solution is oversight. When my unit conducts an APFT of any sort, I am out there too. Maybe (usually) taking the test, sometimes as the NCOIC or a grader, but present. When the data gets entered into DTMS, I review it. When the counseling for failures happen, I am involved. When the Flags happen, I make them happen with the S-1 shop. No one is putting in a fraudulent APFT on my watch, and if for some reason it happened, I would likely catch it and certainly know who the enabler would have to be.
This Major is getting away with this because the Sr NCOs allowed it to happen due to their inattention. If known and tolerated, the whole herd needs to be thrown out on their ear.
This officer will command and have to hold accountable Soldiers that fail to meet the standard. By compromising on this, she is no longer fit to wear those Oak Leaves.
Sayanara.
Complicating things is her rank and ability to imply difficulty on the (almost certainly) lower ranking members that administer the test and record-keeping. I have little doubt that the Major has done this before, and gotten away with it before.
The solution is oversight. When my unit conducts an APFT of any sort, I am out there too. Maybe (usually) taking the test, sometimes as the NCOIC or a grader, but present. When the data gets entered into DTMS, I review it. When the counseling for failures happen, I am involved. When the Flags happen, I make them happen with the S-1 shop. No one is putting in a fraudulent APFT on my watch, and if for some reason it happened, I would likely catch it and certainly know who the enabler would have to be.
This Major is getting away with this because the Sr NCOs allowed it to happen due to their inattention. If known and tolerated, the whole herd needs to be thrown out on their ear.
This officer will command and have to hold accountable Soldiers that fail to meet the standard. By compromising on this, she is no longer fit to wear those Oak Leaves.
Sayanara.
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CSM (Join to see)
1SG H,
You are on point. Some Soldiers have been doing these integrity violations for a while and allowed to act with impunity. It is unfortunate that others help them, too. Hypothetically, the day the CSM goes on leave is always a good day to……
You are on point. Some Soldiers have been doing these integrity violations for a while and allowed to act with impunity. It is unfortunate that others help them, too. Hypothetically, the day the CSM goes on leave is always a good day to……
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It sounds like dereliction of duty on all parts. I have witnessed this before while on AGR status for the PA National Guard Recruiting and Retention. I did not make a scene but I did go through my team leader and he challenged my integrity. Me being a combat vet told the said team leader in the most respectful manner you cannot lead behind closed doors. Then worked it up the chain. Ultimately nothing happened but I did my part in reporting it.
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CSM (Join to see)
SFC McLaughlin,
Thank you for your integrity and doing the right thing by reporting it. Continue on this path with a tight reins on your Core Values, since evil only wins battles they NEVER win the WAR.
Thank you for your integrity and doing the right thing by reporting it. Continue on this path with a tight reins on your Core Values, since evil only wins battles they NEVER win the WAR.
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Easy fix invite her commander to an APFT and BF weigh in given by reliable senior NCOs, then figure out who signed her 705s hold all them responsible
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CSM, I actually had a conversation about something similar to this subject today. First, I believe there are many senior NCOs and Officers who haven't taken an APFT or weigh and tape in years. You can look at a lot of these 1SGs and CSM/SGM, and a lot of Majors and above who clearly look overweight. I work in many HQs, and can say for a fact that I have noticed many in my day who have never showed their faces at an APFT or weigh and tape. That being said, it's happening all the time and nobody is monitoring/ tracking it. To answer your question- I think the same thing should happen to that officer as did a SGT (P) in one of my previous units who changed the run time for a brand new LT who had failed. She had a lapse of judgement trying to help a LT who was worried about looking like a dirt bag LT, and she lost everything because of it, and so did he. She and he both were given punitive actions and separated from the Army over it. Im glad I'm not in the position to make serious decisions about someone else's career, but being completely honest, how many Soldiers has that MAJ- when he/she was in command -tossed out into the streets, for failing an APFT or HT/WT? Standards are standards and nobody is above them. Soldiers, officers especially, should always act above reproach.
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1SG (Join to see)
We just had a BN record APFT in Saturday. Total count of E-8s and above out there: 2 (myself and another in my company). Nary an officer to be seen except the LTs and a smattering of Captains. Coincidence? I don't think so.
The troops have to see that not only do they have to meet the standards, but their leaders get sweaty and prove that they meet them too. When they are conspicuously absent, they see it.
The troops have to see that not only do they have to meet the standards, but their leaders get sweaty and prove that they meet them too. When they are conspicuously absent, they see it.
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CSM (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - Roger. Everyone should be out there even if they are not taking it.
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remove him for whatever he was selected for (I'm AF and gave no idea what AGR is) and that's easily an Article 15 offense.
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SSG Richard Reilly
You probably will not get an Article 15 for a MAJ. A Letter of Concern maybe but a GO Article 15 is a stretch.
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MSgt Darum Danford
SSG Richard Reilly It's certainly appropriate but you're right. He probably would not get a A15 in the AF either. I will say, as my 19 yrs as a paralegal I have worked 15 actions concerning officers for less though.
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SSG Richard Reilly
MSgt Darum Danford - IT becomes more airing your dirty laundry to a level most commands don't want to air at.
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CSM (Join to see)
SSG Richard Reilly - I know and that is problematic. Wrongdoers need to be exposed and held accountable no matter their rank.
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If I have % proof it is false, he doesn't pass go, doesn't collect 200. I first would confront the Major in person in person to see if he wants to retract it. If not, then I go to the TNG Officer/NCO and present the facts, if nothing, then to the CDR.
I was in the position once as SNCO when my unit was to take a APFT. Everyone was there except the XO. Finally he comes out in BDUs and I state we are waiting for him to get changed. He said he wasn't taking the test. I asked if he had a profile, no he didn't. I then stated he needed to changed. He tried to intimidate me, but I never backed down. The CDR came out, looked at the XO and me as asked what the problem was, I explained. The CDR looked at the XO and told him he either right this minute goes to the TMC and gets a profile or get changed. He went and got a profile.
I was in the position once as SNCO when my unit was to take a APFT. Everyone was there except the XO. Finally he comes out in BDUs and I state we are waiting for him to get changed. He said he wasn't taking the test. I asked if he had a profile, no he didn't. I then stated he needed to changed. He tried to intimidate me, but I never backed down. The CDR came out, looked at the XO and me as asked what the problem was, I explained. The CDR looked at the XO and told him he either right this minute goes to the TMC and gets a profile or get changed. He went and got a profile.
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CSM (Join to see)
Enforcing the standards is job that comes with risk. Did you get retaliated against? I hope not.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
CSM (Join to see) - No I didn't but the Major and I weren't too friendly there after.
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