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The answer is obviously never. When the Soldier in question is an NCO, its is equally important. Today, I had an NCO, the only female Soldier in my PLT, tell me she had no trust in the unit because of past leader actions. I'm a new PL, but I had spent the last 24+ hours trying to accommodate to her situation (CQ, BH, training requirements) in light of the mission in a way that I felt was reasonable. I was met with attitude, apathy, and strong elements of insubordination. COVID, the overall mission, and a shortage of NCOs have introduced more complex variables than I have never encountered. However, I was dumbfounded by an NCO that could not grasp her duty.
She was scheduled for a 24 CQ shift. She also was part of a crew that needed to certify in the next couple weeks, and her crew had not had time to train properly. I suggested she train during the day she had CQ. My plan was for her to train during the day with a 5 hour break before she would resume CQ, and this was unacceptable to her. We found a compromise where she would go train for 1 HOUR, but she still told us she did not trust us because we "put the mission before Soldiers." This was a smack in the face given my efforts to disagree with other NCOs, me trying to consider all elements of the situations.
Any thoughts? Questions are also welcome.
She was scheduled for a 24 CQ shift. She also was part of a crew that needed to certify in the next couple weeks, and her crew had not had time to train properly. I suggested she train during the day she had CQ. My plan was for her to train during the day with a 5 hour break before she would resume CQ, and this was unacceptable to her. We found a compromise where she would go train for 1 HOUR, but she still told us she did not trust us because we "put the mission before Soldiers." This was a smack in the face given my efforts to disagree with other NCOs, me trying to consider all elements of the situations.
Any thoughts? Questions are also welcome.
Leadership
NCOs
Air Defense
Morale
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 35
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When do you give up on a Soldier? The answer is certainly not "never".
In short, when one Soldier is consuming their respective leaderships time and attention to the point that the rest of the Soldiers in that leaderships charge is being neglected, it's time to consider chaptering that Soldier.
The old adage of "ten percent of our Soldiers occupying 90% of our time" is a well intentioned, but flawed thing to accept.
All Soldiers are entitled to leadership, mentorship and guidance. Not just our problem children. When one member of the unit is causing the rest of the units morale and readiness to decline by making the leadership absentee parents to the rest of the unit, it's time to go.
It's not abandonment. All the attention and wishful thinking in the world will not turn a cancer into a kidney or liver.
The unit deserves leadership that will remove cancer instead of allowing it to metastasize.
In short, when one Soldier is consuming their respective leaderships time and attention to the point that the rest of the Soldiers in that leaderships charge is being neglected, it's time to consider chaptering that Soldier.
The old adage of "ten percent of our Soldiers occupying 90% of our time" is a well intentioned, but flawed thing to accept.
All Soldiers are entitled to leadership, mentorship and guidance. Not just our problem children. When one member of the unit is causing the rest of the units morale and readiness to decline by making the leadership absentee parents to the rest of the unit, it's time to go.
It's not abandonment. All the attention and wishful thinking in the world will not turn a cancer into a kidney or liver.
The unit deserves leadership that will remove cancer instead of allowing it to metastasize.
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The Army doesn't run on cliches and motivation, that stops working after Basic. The Army runs on reality and finite resources. The most finite resource of those is time, you cannot allow one Soldier to absorb all the time that other Soldiers deserve and need.
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OK, new Platoon Leader. Come up with the plan, sit down with your PSG and go over it, then both of you sit down and inform that NCO of the plan. Last time I looked, the Army isn't a democracy and as long as it's a lawful order, then it needs to be obeyed. You are the Platoon Leader, step up and act like it. The squad/section leaders should be answering to you and this one sounds like you need to have a loud "heart to heart" discussion of what you expect of her and what you think her weaknesses are and how you want them corrected. If this NCO is incapable of following instructions, start documenting that fact with counseling statements, etc, and put her out of the service.
Sit down with your Platoon Sergeant and get his views of this soldier and listen to his suggestions. He has been around the platoon and that soldier longer and has years more experience. You don't always need to follow those suggestions, but make sure you have valid reasons not to use his advice. Make sure that he supports your course of action.
Sit down with your Platoon Sergeant and get his views of this soldier and listen to his suggestions. He has been around the platoon and that soldier longer and has years more experience. You don't always need to follow those suggestions, but make sure you have valid reasons not to use his advice. Make sure that he supports your course of action.
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MAJ Glenn Bergeron
That's what I initially thought reading this. "What is / is there the PSG's involvement?"
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
The first thing I'd like to know is who recommended this person for advancement and why? Was she a good performer who has changed her mind about the additional duties and responsibilities expected from her? Perhaps retreating back to her previous grade (administratively not punitively) would be the fair thing for all. If advancement is needed for reenlistment and she can't be recommended for advancement then she can't be recommended for reenlistment either. You get a person who performs her duties well at her old grade and she is released when her contract is up. Not everyone is cut out for NCO. Make room for a better qualified person.
Personally this person scares me and I wouldn't want her in my squad. If she doesn't realize that we're enlisted to perform missions how can I trust her to be in her position when the time comes. Whose life will she abandon to save her own?
Personally this person scares me and I wouldn't want her in my squad. If she doesn't realize that we're enlisted to perform missions how can I trust her to be in her position when the time comes. Whose life will she abandon to save her own?
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CPT Lawrence Cable
PO2 Robert Cuminale - She literally could have had a series of bad leaders, so I always want to give a soldier a chance. However, if that experience has made her incapable of being a member of the team, then you make a plan to document her actions and remove her from the scene. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier or, as you pointed out, an NCO. OTOH, even as an Officer, I have had to deal with some pretty toxic chains of command that would have made it easy to just says the Army sucks. Fortunately, I have seen enough good leadership to understand that things can change for the better.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
I didn't run into but one bad chain but several weak links. In my own department, Public Works the department took no interest in the men at all. He stayed in his office doing paperwork. The same with assistant, a LTjg. Supervision was left to the Chiefs. We had one E-8 who was an exceptional man, proficient in everything, his rating was utilities. A sharp dresser with creases running through the middle of every button on his shirt. We lost him when he was selected for commissioning as a Limited Duty Officer. Under him the shops ran smooth. There wasn't anything we wouldn't do for him. An anecdote: I had the Public Works duty one Friday night. The urinals at the EM club were clogged. I called him and he came down. I'm an Electrician so I know beans about plumbing. I unscrewed a urinal from the wall. He was on the floor supporting it. When it came loose his head was doused with about a quart of urine. It didn't phase him. Ater the urinal was set down he ran his head under the faucet and we went back to work. Its difficult to turn down work because it's beneath you after you've seen an E-8 get a piss shower.
His replacement wasn't as decent. His goal was to learn to build golf courses. I can't imagine how much of the Navy's money went into ours as he worked out his education for retirement. He was also vindictive. If he didn't like you he found ways to make life difficult for the lower rated people.
The Chief I worked directly for was a functional alcoholic. He did things that embarrassed us. And his family suffered as well. He was so bad that one year the Chiefs board cited him and eleven other Chiefs in the whole Navy as being unfit to be Chiefs. His wife waited until he retired and divorced him. There were a couple of others as well. One E-6 made Chief and they didn't have a billet for him. They put him in charge of the Chiefs' Mess. He died two years later from Liver Cirrhosis.
If anything aggravated me most it was the culture that protected the drunks. That I think cost the Navy more reenlistments than anything else. People got frustrated working for these people and got out. I know I did. I stayed with the reserves instead. That was the weak link and it affected every command, division and department.
It's been 46 years since I left active duty. I would hope that that weak link had been eliminated by now.
His replacement wasn't as decent. His goal was to learn to build golf courses. I can't imagine how much of the Navy's money went into ours as he worked out his education for retirement. He was also vindictive. If he didn't like you he found ways to make life difficult for the lower rated people.
The Chief I worked directly for was a functional alcoholic. He did things that embarrassed us. And his family suffered as well. He was so bad that one year the Chiefs board cited him and eleven other Chiefs in the whole Navy as being unfit to be Chiefs. His wife waited until he retired and divorced him. There were a couple of others as well. One E-6 made Chief and they didn't have a billet for him. They put him in charge of the Chiefs' Mess. He died two years later from Liver Cirrhosis.
If anything aggravated me most it was the culture that protected the drunks. That I think cost the Navy more reenlistments than anything else. People got frustrated working for these people and got out. I know I did. I stayed with the reserves instead. That was the weak link and it affected every command, division and department.
It's been 46 years since I left active duty. I would hope that that weak link had been eliminated by now.
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I have come to realization that sometimes people are just "done".
By all means try and keep working with her, but from what I've read thus far, is its likely time for her to get out. Is she toxic towards her peers and subordinates? That would be another red flag to keep an eye out for,
I have started to realize that some people are there to check in and check out, 9-5 job and won't do anything extra. I feel like some people forget they're in the military and if your told to do training during the time of scheduled CQ then guess what you're doing, training.
By all means try and keep working with her, but from what I've read thus far, is its likely time for her to get out. Is she toxic towards her peers and subordinates? That would be another red flag to keep an eye out for,
I have started to realize that some people are there to check in and check out, 9-5 job and won't do anything extra. I feel like some people forget they're in the military and if your told to do training during the time of scheduled CQ then guess what you're doing, training.
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2LT (Join to see)
I plan on doing what I can for everyone's benefit. She might be "done," but that attitude will not help her outside of the military. I don't mind if people want to get out, but I am committed to making them better people. Some might not want that, but she is an NCO that will be here until August.. Do I just give her mundane tasks, while keeping her out of the big picture? We are already short NCOs, so there are consequences to do doing that. I cannot say she is toxic, but her squad does have issues when it comes to other Soldiers, so maybe...
My PSG recommended shuffling the squads around, which might help. The question remains on what to do with her in the meantime.
My PSG recommended shuffling the squads around, which might help. The question remains on what to do with her in the meantime.
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SGT Mark Halmrast
2LT (Join to see) dumb question, but first context.
When I served in the 80's, there were consequences for an NCO not doing their job. Very straightforward.
Are there not consequences in today's military? It's an honest question.
From a leadership perspective, I've found it's better to operate short-handed with the right people than try to accommodate a troubled asset. I'm a business exec with a few years under my belt fwiw.
You will make the decision you think is best. What's encouraging to me is you will learn either way through this. Your leadership is being sharpened.
So...lead. Learn. Grow. You have what it takes to lead through this.
When I served in the 80's, there were consequences for an NCO not doing their job. Very straightforward.
Are there not consequences in today's military? It's an honest question.
From a leadership perspective, I've found it's better to operate short-handed with the right people than try to accommodate a troubled asset. I'm a business exec with a few years under my belt fwiw.
You will make the decision you think is best. What's encouraging to me is you will learn either way through this. Your leadership is being sharpened.
So...lead. Learn. Grow. You have what it takes to lead through this.
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Thank you for this question 2LT (Join to see). So I’m going to give a slightly different take although the old me would agree with 99.9% of the comments raised.
BLUF- if after your best attempts which I’ll describe next, and she is still not changing then you’ve done your best and it’s on her.
So try a different nontraditional military approach that modern leaders use. There are several philosophies on dealing with the problem child. A simple google search of "how to deal with a difficult employee as a leader” will pull up many hits.
BL-The first step to this is making sure you have well-developed EQ. You need empathy to understand and try to see where she’s coming from. Clearly, something has troubled her to be how she is. Perhaps you can turn things around. But you must first understand her.
You may need to enlist others she has positive relationships with to help you succeed. You may at times need to remind her of certain realities with mil service such as mission and team, but this should not be punitive or done as a negative reinforcement.
This approach will take time and energy but it will not only possibly help her but it will make you a better leader. In fact, a true leader. Look up John Maxwell and the 5 stages of leadership. Greatest read for all true leaders
BLUF- if after your best attempts which I’ll describe next, and she is still not changing then you’ve done your best and it’s on her.
So try a different nontraditional military approach that modern leaders use. There are several philosophies on dealing with the problem child. A simple google search of "how to deal with a difficult employee as a leader” will pull up many hits.
BL-The first step to this is making sure you have well-developed EQ. You need empathy to understand and try to see where she’s coming from. Clearly, something has troubled her to be how she is. Perhaps you can turn things around. But you must first understand her.
You may need to enlist others she has positive relationships with to help you succeed. You may at times need to remind her of certain realities with mil service such as mission and team, but this should not be punitive or done as a negative reinforcement.
This approach will take time and energy but it will not only possibly help her but it will make you a better leader. In fact, a true leader. Look up John Maxwell and the 5 stages of leadership. Greatest read for all true leaders
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"she still told us she did not trust us because we put the mission before Soldiers."
I have a real problem with this statement.
The Army doesn't exist to first accommodate every Soldier, and then complete only the missions that are convenient to that end.
The Army does, in fact, exist to complete the mission first, and leaders care for Soldiers as best as possible throughout.
The short way to say that is mission first, Soldiers always.
Clearly, this NCO wasn't ready to be an NCO. She's not the first and she won't be the last, but if she can't grasp and employ this very simple concept soon, then both she and the Army would be better off parting ways.
Also, when you have an NCO on CQ and offer them a chance to take 5 hours away from the CQ desk to train their troops, if they reply with anything other than "hell yeah" or "any chance can we make that 7 hours?", then there is something seriously wrong with that NCO.
Because CQ is the textbook definition of training time wasted.
I have a real problem with this statement.
The Army doesn't exist to first accommodate every Soldier, and then complete only the missions that are convenient to that end.
The Army does, in fact, exist to complete the mission first, and leaders care for Soldiers as best as possible throughout.
The short way to say that is mission first, Soldiers always.
Clearly, this NCO wasn't ready to be an NCO. She's not the first and she won't be the last, but if she can't grasp and employ this very simple concept soon, then both she and the Army would be better off parting ways.
Also, when you have an NCO on CQ and offer them a chance to take 5 hours away from the CQ desk to train their troops, if they reply with anything other than "hell yeah" or "any chance can we make that 7 hours?", then there is something seriously wrong with that NCO.
Because CQ is the textbook definition of training time wasted.
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CPL Earl Kochis
Amen! Sounds to me like she has decided her feelings come before her Oath. That leads to disaster. Might be time for her to take a new career path.
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Mission, Men, Myself.
That is the order of priorities for good leaders since time immemorial. Yes, you should be putting the mission first - and so should that NCO. That does not mean that we sacrifice the Soldiers needlessly, because then we won't have anyone for the NEXT mission. But mission always comes first.
Remind this NCO that the NCO Creed lists two basic duties that should always be uppermost in her mind - the accomplishment of her mission and the welfare of her Soldiers. And then let her know that there is a reason that accomplishment of the mission comes first.
It is true that one of the main roles of an NCO as far as it comes to taking care of Soldiers is to provide pushback when the Soldiers' welfare is being compromised. But that comes in the form of providing pushback at the time of compromise, not in the form of having a bad attitude months later.
I am going to make a couple of assumptions now. I assume the NCO is a SGT or a CPL, because that is who is usually on CQ (SSGs and SFCs usually have SDNCO). I am going to also assume that this NCO has at least one NCO between you and her. Finally, I will assume that you rate her first line leader, based on standard Platoon organization (TL, SL, PSG/PL, and PL rates SLs and PSG).
Based on those assumptions, this is, in my opinion, one of those situations that you should let NCOs handle. I am NOT advocating that you ignore this behavior, or wash your hands of it. But you need to pull that Squad/Section Leader aside, let them know of the problem, and let them know that this is THEIR leadership challenge to fix. Provide support, encouragement, and resources (and bring the PSG in on the situation because he/she has a WORLD of guidance and suggestions to offer), but let your subordinate NCO deal with fixing that SGTs attitude problem. If this NCO is truly unsalvageable, then you start doing the paperwork to either reduce them or remove them from the Army.
That is the order of priorities for good leaders since time immemorial. Yes, you should be putting the mission first - and so should that NCO. That does not mean that we sacrifice the Soldiers needlessly, because then we won't have anyone for the NEXT mission. But mission always comes first.
Remind this NCO that the NCO Creed lists two basic duties that should always be uppermost in her mind - the accomplishment of her mission and the welfare of her Soldiers. And then let her know that there is a reason that accomplishment of the mission comes first.
It is true that one of the main roles of an NCO as far as it comes to taking care of Soldiers is to provide pushback when the Soldiers' welfare is being compromised. But that comes in the form of providing pushback at the time of compromise, not in the form of having a bad attitude months later.
I am going to make a couple of assumptions now. I assume the NCO is a SGT or a CPL, because that is who is usually on CQ (SSGs and SFCs usually have SDNCO). I am going to also assume that this NCO has at least one NCO between you and her. Finally, I will assume that you rate her first line leader, based on standard Platoon organization (TL, SL, PSG/PL, and PL rates SLs and PSG).
Based on those assumptions, this is, in my opinion, one of those situations that you should let NCOs handle. I am NOT advocating that you ignore this behavior, or wash your hands of it. But you need to pull that Squad/Section Leader aside, let them know of the problem, and let them know that this is THEIR leadership challenge to fix. Provide support, encouragement, and resources (and bring the PSG in on the situation because he/she has a WORLD of guidance and suggestions to offer), but let your subordinate NCO deal with fixing that SGTs attitude problem. If this NCO is truly unsalvageable, then you start doing the paperwork to either reduce them or remove them from the Army.
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SP5 (Join to see)
SFC Casey O'Mally Best set of suggestions in all the responses. It looks like, based on the original post, that the NCO structure has been bypassed in dealing directly with the NCO in question. Also, he didn't mention if past NCOERs or any documented counselings had been reviewed. The sort of questions that arise when a supervisory (NCO) issue becomes a management (O) issue to deal with.
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SSG (Join to see)
This response is the best one here. Other responses are good for perspective, but I 100% agree with SFC Casey O'Mally
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Never. Document document document and put the Soldier out of the Army at a very last resort.
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Ma'am Mission ALWAYS comes 1st, you try to watch out for and work/protect your soldiers. there maybe 1000's of other troops that are depending no your mission success. Like the song- "Know when to hold them, Know when to hold them", you can't keep everybody or keep them happy. You have a duty to your other troops, and if she is cutting into others time, send her home. Remember , this is NOT LETS Make a Deal. CQ maybe 24 hr duty, but that means normally the NCO checks on the desk/runner regularly, not set on their ass for 24hrs. She doesn't even need a break, because normally the next day is her day off. If she can't work in excess of 24 hours, then she is worthless in a combat environment. That is exactly what your mission is suppose to be- have/train/maintain a unit that is ready to go anyway at anytime and successfully do thier job. AN uncertified crew is an un trained crew and worthless to you/unit. Quietly pull her aside, and tell her/ Hell read her last NCOER duty description to her and tell her either meet the standards of I'll suggest you go home, don't follow orders and you will go home as a SPC.
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I have a question, and I have been out of the service for a good while. When has the mission not come first or in front of the soldiers? To me, this soldier sounds like a spoiled brat, and you made a mistake by compromising with her over anything. I realize you are dealing with an NCO and this is unfortunate that you have to deal with this. 1. the fact this is a female, you called it out means that you, could be the most professional leader ever, are considering her differently which is telling to the entire situation. Either she lets it be known she is a she and she demands to be treated like a queen, probably not much bending at the waste and going to work kind of thing, or you have segregated her in your mind and put her gender as a gentleman in front of the fact that she is a GI. 2. the Army is now running a giant puzzle game but it gets accomplished with all of it's millions of puzzle pieces at 100 mph fueled by compromising with everyone's emotions.
Number 2, even in modern society doesn't seem to be the answer because when I was writing it having been in the military, spelling and grammar aside, just the thought of what I was saying did not compute. I understand the pandemic has created issues with normal process, I also realize you could be in a situation where your mission is the pandemic...I still have to follow this up with a question though, has it changed, or don't you still get 24 off after being on 24 hours when in garrison? I realize there could be dependents involved or something like that, that is for the NCO to figure out, not the Army, I thought this is were horse trading, favors and "blue chips" were generated around duty and making sure your shifts were covered, or am I missing something?
Number 2, even in modern society doesn't seem to be the answer because when I was writing it having been in the military, spelling and grammar aside, just the thought of what I was saying did not compute. I understand the pandemic has created issues with normal process, I also realize you could be in a situation where your mission is the pandemic...I still have to follow this up with a question though, has it changed, or don't you still get 24 off after being on 24 hours when in garrison? I realize there could be dependents involved or something like that, that is for the NCO to figure out, not the Army, I thought this is were horse trading, favors and "blue chips" were generated around duty and making sure your shifts were covered, or am I missing something?
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