Posted on Dec 23, 2015
When is a Navy Captain referred to as 'Commodore'? When is a Lieutenant called 'Captain'?
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First things first, credit for this idea goes to COL Ted Mc, who posed these questions to me in another thread, as an indication of the confusion Naval ranks can cause other services. I thought it would be fun and informative to submit them to the larger RP audience. Sister service members, if you have similar vagaries in your rank structures, please feel free to post them as well. So, to wit:
1. When is a full-bird Captain referred to as 'Commodore'?
2. When is an (O-3) Captain referred to as 'Major'?
3. When is a Lieutenant referred to as 'Captain'? (Or, alternatively, a Senior Chief, or Master Chief?)
And bonus question, just for the heck of it, what the hell is a 'Boats', anyway?
Go!
1. When is a full-bird Captain referred to as 'Commodore'?
2. When is an (O-3) Captain referred to as 'Major'?
3. When is a Lieutenant referred to as 'Captain'? (Or, alternatively, a Senior Chief, or Master Chief?)
And bonus question, just for the heck of it, what the hell is a 'Boats', anyway?
Go!
Rank
Sailors
Tradition
Customs and Courtesies
Naval/Maritime History
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 45
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Here's one for you:
Your ship is expecting a number of dignitaries; among whom are going to be the Captain of the USS United States and the PotUS.
The bells ring and you hear over the 1MC, "United States, Arriving" ... how do you know if it's the Captain or the President?
Your ship is expecting a number of dignitaries; among whom are going to be the Captain of the USS United States and the PotUS.
The bells ring and you hear over the 1MC, "United States, Arriving" ... how do you know if it's the Captain or the President?
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 Joseph Glennon
Simple. 4 bells for USS United States and 8 bells for the POTUS. The President also rates a 21 Gun Salute.
Simple. 4 bells for USS United States and 8 bells for the POTUS. The President also rates a 21 Gun Salute.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
Outstanding! You wouldn't believe how many people couldn't get that one right, when I was teaching my young padawans (yeah - Star Wars reference - sue me) in Deck, as well as folks who were studying for ESWS...
Since you got that one right - let's go a little more difficult... the PotUS and the VPotUS are to come aboard... the difference?
Since you got that one right - let's go a little more difficult... the PotUS and the VPotUS are to come aboard... the difference?
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 Joseph Glennon
Boats, I believe it's still 8 bells for VP (memory is a little rusty, LOL) but a 19-gun salute. I'm also not sure what the 1MC announcement would be.
Boats, I believe it's still 8 bells for VP (memory is a little rusty, LOL) but a 19-gun salute. I'm also not sure what the 1MC announcement would be.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
There wouldn't be a difference... then again, we'd only see both of them on the same ship in hypothetical situations.
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Some mistakes below:
Item 1) A Captain is referred to as Commodore when he leads multiple commands, not just ships. Commodore of NBG-1 has multiple shore commands under him/her, such as BMU-1 ACU-1, ACU-5, ACB-1.
Item 4) "Boats" is a short name for a Boatswain's Mate (BM). Also, a Ship's Boatswain (a Warrant Officer Specialty) will be referred to as "Boats" but ONLY by his Warrant peer group or the CO/XO.
Item 1) A Captain is referred to as Commodore when he leads multiple commands, not just ships. Commodore of NBG-1 has multiple shore commands under him/her, such as BMU-1 ACU-1, ACU-5, ACB-1.
Item 4) "Boats" is a short name for a Boatswain's Mate (BM). Also, a Ship's Boatswain (a Warrant Officer Specialty) will be referred to as "Boats" but ONLY by his Warrant peer group or the CO/XO.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
An addendum to your comment about the Ship's Boatswain: the rest of the crew would commonly call him / refer to him as "Bosun" (Bo's'n)
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I've always heard it explained thus-but am open to correction:
1. The rank of Commodore was created during the time when there were only three ranks of fully qualified naval offices...Lieutenants, Captains and Admirals. A lieutenant was any officer who had passed the examination after serving as a midshipmen. Captains were officers commanding ships, and Commodores were Captains who commanded flotillas, but didn't share equal rank with general officers ashore. An admiral was essentially a general at sea, commanding vessels, and embarked troops.
2. I believe historically, any time a lieutenant assumed command of a vessel permanently, he was promoted "captain". The rank of Lieutenant-Commanding was created later to signify a lieutenant who was fully in command of a vessel, and by the 19th century, this rank evolved into Lieutenant Commander. Rear Admiral evolved to replace Commodore...though I believe (and I'd need to do some fact checking) the term continued for a short time as the ranks of Captain and Rear Admiral distanced in status and became more formalized.
3. "Boats" of course, has been used for at least two occurrences...first, as the Boatswain's Mate; a billet that extends back to the earliest days of sail, and continues today as the senior enlisted or warrant officer under the First Lieutenant. Most usually, the most experienced and qualified person above decks. I've also heard it used commonly in the second instance, among any rated Boatswain's Mate-thought I'd love to get the "official" take from any BMs on RP.
In summary, the term "commodore" has always indicated an officer who has command over more than one vessel...but I believe the use fell away with the increased formality of progression from Captain to Rear Admiral. A Lieutenant commanding a vessel as senior officer would be called "Skipper", but with the emergence of Captain as a formal rank, and Lieutenant Commander, I do not believe you would call a senior LT in command "Captain". "Boats" is most probably best applied to the First Lieutenant's senior enlisted/warrant officer expert...though I have heard it used in-rate by BMs.
1. The rank of Commodore was created during the time when there were only three ranks of fully qualified naval offices...Lieutenants, Captains and Admirals. A lieutenant was any officer who had passed the examination after serving as a midshipmen. Captains were officers commanding ships, and Commodores were Captains who commanded flotillas, but didn't share equal rank with general officers ashore. An admiral was essentially a general at sea, commanding vessels, and embarked troops.
2. I believe historically, any time a lieutenant assumed command of a vessel permanently, he was promoted "captain". The rank of Lieutenant-Commanding was created later to signify a lieutenant who was fully in command of a vessel, and by the 19th century, this rank evolved into Lieutenant Commander. Rear Admiral evolved to replace Commodore...though I believe (and I'd need to do some fact checking) the term continued for a short time as the ranks of Captain and Rear Admiral distanced in status and became more formalized.
3. "Boats" of course, has been used for at least two occurrences...first, as the Boatswain's Mate; a billet that extends back to the earliest days of sail, and continues today as the senior enlisted or warrant officer under the First Lieutenant. Most usually, the most experienced and qualified person above decks. I've also heard it used commonly in the second instance, among any rated Boatswain's Mate-thought I'd love to get the "official" take from any BMs on RP.
In summary, the term "commodore" has always indicated an officer who has command over more than one vessel...but I believe the use fell away with the increased formality of progression from Captain to Rear Admiral. A Lieutenant commanding a vessel as senior officer would be called "Skipper", but with the emergence of Captain as a formal rank, and Lieutenant Commander, I do not believe you would call a senior LT in command "Captain". "Boats" is most probably best applied to the First Lieutenant's senior enlisted/warrant officer expert...though I have heard it used in-rate by BMs.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
from a retired BM1 (SW)
"Boats" is the common term that a good Boatswain's Mate is called by other BM's, and by the crew (you'll hear it a lot when folks are trying to jostle their way onto a liberty boat!)
My third and fourth ships were minesweeps - commanded by a Lt. (O-3)... we called him "Captain", as he was the skipper of the ship...
*had to edit it, to get it to show everything before the last 8 words... I didn't realize I was writing in hypertext!
"Boats" is the common term that a good Boatswain's Mate is called by other BM's, and by the crew (you'll hear it a lot when folks are trying to jostle their way onto a liberty boat!)
My third and fourth ships were minesweeps - commanded by a Lt. (O-3)... we called him "Captain", as he was the skipper of the ship...
*had to edit it, to get it to show everything before the last 8 words... I didn't realize I was writing in hypertext!
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SN Greg Wright
1. When said Captain is in charge of a group of ships; ARG, CSG, etc.
2. Never heard that one. I've seen others say that an O3 Captain is called Major to avoid confusion when onboard a Naval vessel but I've never seen it. I've had Jarheads on a few of my ships and their O3's were always called Sir/Ma'am or Captain.
3. When they're the commanding officer of a ship or small boat.
Bonus: A Boatswain's Mate, duh! :)
1. When said Captain is in charge of a group of ships; ARG, CSG, etc.
2. Never heard that one. I've seen others say that an O3 Captain is called Major to avoid confusion when onboard a Naval vessel but I've never seen it. I've had Jarheads on a few of my ships and their O3's were always called Sir/Ma'am or Captain.
3. When they're the commanding officer of a ship or small boat.
Bonus: A Boatswain's Mate, duh! :)
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Haha...I served in the Corps, so i'll take a stab at these.
1. when the cap-e-ton is in charge of more then one ship, I believe.
2. I would say Never. I've been on naval vessel and we never called our Capt, Major, we just called him Sir. We called the Captain or Full Bird- Skipper.
3. When he's in charge of a vessel
bonus - boatswain
1. when the cap-e-ton is in charge of more then one ship, I believe.
2. I would say Never. I've been on naval vessel and we never called our Capt, Major, we just called him Sir. We called the Captain or Full Bird- Skipper.
3. When he's in charge of a vessel
bonus - boatswain
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I lived in Annapolis for five years and Pearl Harbor for two. My dad worked for the Navy for 20 some years. I still don't get it all. I was gonna join the Navy but I figured at 6'6" I'd kill myself hitting my head on pipes and things. I think I made the right choice. Just figuring out all the rank would have been too much for my simple mind.
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PO2 Sam Messer
<<<< Seabee due to the Duke & THE FIGHTING SEABEE'S "
" CAN DO " Officer Stripes just Salute & say By Your Leave Sir !
" CAN DO " Officer Stripes just Salute & say By Your Leave Sir !
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SFC Joseph Weber
PO1 John Miller - Heck Yeah. I forgot to mention one of my favorite Army characters. SFC Bilko! i actually tried to model my life after Phil Silvers and Steve Martin.
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PO2 Ron Burling
SFC Joseph Weber - Every Seabee battalion I was ever near had at least one Sgt. Bilko type, often multiples.
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SN Greg Wright
SFC Joseph Weber Nope. A Commodore is the CO of a detachment of ships (or squadrons), but is always a full bird Captain. The 1-star would be the commander of the whole battle group.
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PO1 John Miller
SFC Joseph Weber and SN Greg Wright
Back in the old days, WWII and earlier, a One Star was not called Rear Admiral Lower Half but Commodore, and that was their official rank.
Back in the old days, WWII and earlier, a One Star was not called Rear Admiral Lower Half but Commodore, and that was their official rank.
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1. 06 "Commodore": command of more than one ship but less than a fleet (or he would be an admiral).
2. 03 "Major" a courtesy promotion to a Marine Captain serving aboard a vessel where referring to him by his proper rank may confuse folks vs. the commander of the vessel (the Captain)
3. Navy 03 or SCPO or MCPO as 'Captain" when he routinely has command of a vessel (patrol boat, Coast Guard boats, etc.)
And I did answer these without reference or looking at the the other answers first.
2. 03 "Major" a courtesy promotion to a Marine Captain serving aboard a vessel where referring to him by his proper rank may confuse folks vs. the commander of the vessel (the Captain)
3. Navy 03 or SCPO or MCPO as 'Captain" when he routinely has command of a vessel (patrol boat, Coast Guard boats, etc.)
And I did answer these without reference or looking at the the other answers first.
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SN Greg Wright
Capt Richard I P. Right on all counts, Captain, although it seems the Major thing has fallen off since I was in, according to some currently-serving members.
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1. Commander of a ready group. examples: DESRON, PHIBRON, TACGROUP
2. no idea, never heard of an O-3 called a Major (O-4 in all other branches)
3. When he is the ONC of the vessel. Normally called Skipper.
4. Someone in the Boatswain Mate rate (PO3 and above) The senior Boatswain Mate on the ship are also know as God.
2. no idea, never heard of an O-3 called a Major (O-4 in all other branches)
3. When he is the ONC of the vessel. Normally called Skipper.
4. Someone in the Boatswain Mate rate (PO3 and above) The senior Boatswain Mate on the ship are also know as God.
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