Posted on Dec 23, 2015
SN Greg Wright
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First things first, credit for this idea goes to COL Ted Mc, who posed these questions to me in another thread, as an indication of the confusion Naval ranks can cause other services. I thought it would be fun and informative to submit them to the larger RP audience. Sister service members, if you have similar vagaries in your rank structures, please feel free to post them as well. So, to wit:

1. When is a full-bird Captain referred to as 'Commodore'?
2. When is an (O-3) Captain referred to as 'Major'?
3. When is a Lieutenant referred to as 'Captain'? (Or, alternatively, a Senior Chief, or Master Chief?)

And bonus question, just for the heck of it, what the hell is a 'Boats', anyway?

Go!
Edited >1 y ago
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
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Here's one for you:
Your ship is expecting a number of dignitaries; among whom are going to be the Captain of the USS United States and the PotUS.

The bells ring and you hear over the 1MC, "United States, Arriving" ... how do you know if it's the Captain or the President?
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
>1 y
PO1 Joseph Glennon
Simple. 4 bells for USS United States and 8 bells for the POTUS. The President also rates a 21 Gun Salute.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
PO1 Joseph Glennon
>1 y
Outstanding! You wouldn't believe how many people couldn't get that one right, when I was teaching my young padawans (yeah - Star Wars reference - sue me) in Deck, as well as folks who were studying for ESWS...

Since you got that one right - let's go a little more difficult... the PotUS and the VPotUS are to come aboard... the difference?
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
>1 y
PO1 Joseph Glennon
Boats, I believe it's still 8 bells for VP (memory is a little rusty, LOL) but a 19-gun salute. I'm also not sure what the 1MC announcement would be.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
PO1 Joseph Glennon
>1 y
There wouldn't be a difference... then again, we'd only see both of them on the same ship in hypothetical situations.
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CWO3 Bryan Luciani
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Some mistakes below:
Item 1) A Captain is referred to as Commodore when he leads multiple commands, not just ships. Commodore of NBG-1 has multiple shore commands under him/her, such as BMU-1 ACU-1, ACU-5, ACB-1.
Item 4) "Boats" is a short name for a Boatswain's Mate (BM). Also, a Ship's Boatswain (a Warrant Officer Specialty) will be referred to as "Boats" but ONLY by his Warrant peer group or the CO/XO.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
PO1 Joseph Glennon
>1 y
An addendum to your comment about the Ship's Boatswain: the rest of the crew would commonly call him / refer to him as "Bosun" (Bo's'n)
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LCDR Sales & Proposals Manager Gas Turbine Products
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I've always heard it explained thus-but am open to correction:

1. The rank of Commodore was created during the time when there were only three ranks of fully qualified naval offices...Lieutenants, Captains and Admirals. A lieutenant was any officer who had passed the examination after serving as a midshipmen. Captains were officers commanding ships, and Commodores were Captains who commanded flotillas, but didn't share equal rank with general officers ashore. An admiral was essentially a general at sea, commanding vessels, and embarked troops.

2. I believe historically, any time a lieutenant assumed command of a vessel permanently, he was promoted "captain". The rank of Lieutenant-Commanding was created later to signify a lieutenant who was fully in command of a vessel, and by the 19th century, this rank evolved into Lieutenant Commander. Rear Admiral evolved to replace Commodore...though I believe (and I'd need to do some fact checking) the term continued for a short time as the ranks of Captain and Rear Admiral distanced in status and became more formalized.

3. "Boats" of course, has been used for at least two occurrences...first, as the Boatswain's Mate; a billet that extends back to the earliest days of sail, and continues today as the senior enlisted or warrant officer under the First Lieutenant. Most usually, the most experienced and qualified person above decks. I've also heard it used commonly in the second instance, among any rated Boatswain's Mate-thought I'd love to get the "official" take from any BMs on RP.

In summary, the term "commodore" has always indicated an officer who has command over more than one vessel...but I believe the use fell away with the increased formality of progression from Captain to Rear Admiral. A Lieutenant commanding a vessel as senior officer would be called "Skipper", but with the emergence of Captain as a formal rank, and Lieutenant Commander, I do not believe you would call a senior LT in command "Captain". "Boats" is most probably best applied to the First Lieutenant's senior enlisted/warrant officer expert...though I have heard it used in-rate by BMs.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
PO1 Joseph Glennon
>1 y
from a retired BM1 (SW)
"Boats" is the common term that a good Boatswain's Mate is called by other BM's, and by the crew (you'll hear it a lot when folks are trying to jostle their way onto a liberty boat!)

My third and fourth ships were minesweeps - commanded by a Lt. (O-3)... we called him "Captain", as he was the skipper of the ship...

*had to edit it, to get it to show everything before the last 8 words... I didn't realize I was writing in hypertext!
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PO1 John Miller
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SN Greg Wright
1. When said Captain is in charge of a group of ships; ARG, CSG, etc.
2. Never heard that one. I've seen others say that an O3 Captain is called Major to avoid confusion when onboard a Naval vessel but I've never seen it. I've had Jarheads on a few of my ships and their O3's were always called Sir/Ma'am or Captain.
3. When they're the commanding officer of a ship or small boat.

Bonus: A Boatswain's Mate, duh! :)
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SFC Agr Recruiter
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Edited >1 y ago
Haha...I served in the Corps, so i'll take a stab at these.
1. when the cap-e-ton is in charge of more then one ship, I believe.
2. I would say Never. I've been on naval vessel and we never called our Capt, Major, we just called him Sir. We called the Captain or Full Bird- Skipper.
3. When he's in charge of a vessel
bonus - boatswain
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SFC Joseph Weber
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I lived in Annapolis for five years and Pearl Harbor for two. My dad worked for the Navy for 20 some years. I still don't get it all. I was gonna join the Navy but I figured at 6'6" I'd kill myself hitting my head on pipes and things. I think I made the right choice. Just figuring out all the rank would have been too much for my simple mind.
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PO2 Sam Messer
PO2 Sam Messer
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<<<< Seabee due to the Duke & THE FIGHTING SEABEE'S "
" CAN DO " Officer Stripes just Salute & say By Your Leave Sir !
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
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SFC Joseph Weber

"Army training SIR!!!"
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SFC Joseph Weber
SFC Joseph Weber
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PO1 John Miller - Heck Yeah. I forgot to mention one of my favorite Army characters. SFC Bilko! i actually tried to model my life after Phil Silvers and Steve Martin.
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PO2 Ron Burling
PO2 Ron Burling
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SFC Joseph Weber - Every Seabee battalion I was ever near had at least one Sgt. Bilko type, often multiples.
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SFC Joseph Weber
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I thought a Commodore was a one star.
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
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SFC Joseph Weber Nope. A Commodore is the CO of a detachment of ships (or squadrons), but is always a full bird Captain. The 1-star would be the commander of the whole battle group.
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
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SFC Joseph Weber and SN Greg Wright

Back in the old days, WWII and earlier, a One Star was not called Rear Admiral Lower Half but Commodore, and that was their official rank.
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LTC Operations Officer (Opso)
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If you are Russell Crowe or in Pirates of the Caribbean.
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SN Greg Wright
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SFC Joseph Weber
SFC Joseph Weber
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I thought that was master and commander.
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Capt Richard I P.
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1. 06 "Commodore": command of more than one ship but less than a fleet (or he would be an admiral).
2. 03 "Major" a courtesy promotion to a Marine Captain serving aboard a vessel where referring to him by his proper rank may confuse folks vs. the commander of the vessel (the Captain)
3. Navy 03 or SCPO or MCPO as 'Captain" when he routinely has command of a vessel (patrol boat, Coast Guard boats, etc.)

And I did answer these without reference or looking at the the other answers first.
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
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Capt Richard I P. Right on all counts, Captain, although it seems the Major thing has fallen off since I was in, according to some currently-serving members.
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PO1 Scott Cottrell
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1. Commander of a ready group. examples: DESRON, PHIBRON, TACGROUP
2. no idea, never heard of an O-3 called a Major (O-4 in all other branches)
3. When he is the ONC of the vessel. Normally called Skipper.
4. Someone in the Boatswain Mate rate (PO3 and above) The senior Boatswain Mate on the ship are also know as God.
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PO1 Glenn Boucher
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Edited >1 y ago
A Navy Captain is a Commodore when he is in command of a squadron of ships, such as DESRON 15
In 24 years I never heard of a 0-3 Captain called anything but Captain because that's what he is, I am not a military expert and I suppose that there could possibly be some situation where it would occur I just can't fathom where that might be.
A Lieutenant is referred to Captain when he is in command of a ship and that can apply to LCDR and CDR as well when they are CO of a ship.
Boats is a Boatswain Mate regardless of rank.
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
>1 y
Sgt Richard Buckner - Correct. However, when he commands a vessel (at that level, it will be something like a river boat, or a tug boat, and enlisted Chiefs+ command LCACS) he will be called Captain.
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SCPO Combat Systems Electronics Leading Petty Officer
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Commodore was used for a specific pay grade for a short period of time and not just a positional title. What pay grade was this?
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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O7, Rear Admiral Lower Half.
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CPO Bryan B.
CPO Bryan B.
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Or it could be an O6 in command of a DESRON.
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
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SCPO (Join to see) Excellent question. Thanks, Chief.
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SSgt Jim Gilmore
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1. Time of war as a fleet commander.

2. No clue

3. When in command of a sea-going vessel.

Bonus guess: Boatswain
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
>1 y
SSgt Jim Gilmore You're mostly right, SSgt. However, any full-bird Captain in command of more than one ship at sea can be called Commodore. No need for war-time.

#2 Any non-Naval Captain is called Major when embarked. There can only be one Captain.

Correct on the rest! :)
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SCPO Joshua I
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Commodores are in charge of squadrons, normally, it's a position, not a rank.

Captains are never referred to as "Major", at least not Navy Captains. I found something on Google that indicated Army and Marine Corps Captains may be referred to as "Major" to avoid confusion on a Naval Vessel. Never heard that one before.

Anyone in command of a vessel is referred to as Captain, regardless of rank.

Boats is any rated Boatswain's Mate.
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SCPO Joshua I
SCPO Joshua I
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Air boss is the head of the ship's air department.
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
>1 y
SCPO Joshua I - Ok, Senior, please take a moment to dis-ambiguize my thoughts: the Air Boss is the overall boss of the entire flight section on a carrier, OR, the commander of a singular squadron?

(No sarcasm here, might be hard to tell in text. I'm genuinely asking.)
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SCPO Joshua I
SCPO Joshua I
>1 y
No - air boss is Dept head of air Dept on the Carrier - ship's company, not air wing.

Air wing is a separate command, with the wing commander as the CO. They embark on the carrier for deployments and workups-m air department is part of the ship and maintains all the ALRE gear, flight deck, flight deck equipment, ready rooms, etc.
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SN Greg Wright
SN Greg Wright
>1 y
SCPO Joshua I - Ah, got it. Thanks!
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
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Edited 5 y ago
I think Commodores wear a single star, so when the Captain wears a star. Used to be a wartime only rank but lately have seen Commodores on carriers when I watch videos. All skippers are called Captain regardless of rank, otherwise below CDR addressed as Mister. Boats is a BM Rate.
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Capt Daniel Goodman
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That's actually pretty good...there were a cpl of others I'd known of, as naval idiosyncrasies, obv good ones, of course just stuff I'd heard or picked up, as well as read about, at various times. There was something about approaching a senior officer, I'd always heard one is to say, "By your leave, sir/ma'am", though I don't know how modern sensibilities mightndictate use of rank, rather than themsir/ma'am, now, I'd read about that trend of late also, of course. Next, I'd read that, espec as late as ww2, e.g., the senior flag rank commanding a shore based naval installation was typ made commodore. I'd read of e.g., on the Wikipedia page for radm grace hopper, that I'd sent in a cpl of wks back, some on here actually knew and or had met her, the famous comp sci expert, that she'd actually been made commodore before radm lower half. That's another naval idiosyncrasy, the whole lower and upper half thing, and the whole jjunior grade or j.g. thing, as well, though I'd seen many countries differentiate between Jr and SR company grade ofcrs in similar fashions, not just j.g. or the whole 2nd/1st Lt thing. Then there's the whole UK pronunciation of lieutenant as " leftanent", another country based idiosyncrasy, as well. I knew of the spwhole shore naval installation thing during ww2 for commodore, or, I'd also read, head of a naval task force, at least some time back, I recall, as, in the book In Harms's Way, about the whole USS Indianapolis tragedy, one of the shore installation commanders involved in the search for them ship had been mentioned as being a commodore. Then, also, there's the whole naval thing of "frocking", the analogue to "pinning on" higher rank in army and USAF, I'm not sure how USMC does it, I'd expect USCG, NOAA corps, and usphs corps, also do frocking, as well as US maritime SVC or USMS, being sea svcs, as well. I also know there's that whole thing of waiting for Senate approval before pinning on, the CO of my unit, whom I'd mentioned speaking with once for an hour an experience in itself, I can tell all of you, was a Col waiting to pin on though apprvd for BGen. The usage of Maj for multiple Capt on board a vessel, I hadn't heard or didn't recall, that's interesting, of course. The whole Boats thing apfor a Bosun I'd heard, at least in a merchant marine context, though ocsnly from a naval or sea SVC perspective. There's also the whole CWO usage of Chief, and the whole usage of senior enlisted total ranks as a mode of address, e.g., master chief in Navy or USCG, or, I'd seen in USAF, referring to a CMSgt as Chief on occasion, ever since USAF eliminated warrants. When I was army ROTC before going USAF OTS, the ROTC unit I was in had a CSM I'd heard and addressed fully as command sergeant major, per se, and also a master sergeant addressed as such, as well. Those were just some other aspects I'd noticed I'd figured worth including here, I'd be eager for any thoughts, good topic, honest, interesting minutiae, many thanks, hope was of interest.
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Capt Daniel Goodman
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I've never quite understood, admittedly, the whole thing about commodore vs rear admiral lower half. I'm aware that shore installations, especially major port facilities during WW2, especially in the Pacific from an account I'd read of the USS Indianapolis called In Harm's Way, great book, mentioned that, also in the film version of the story with Stacy Keach, good film rendition, refer, I believe , to there having been a commodore commanding a shore installation involved in the search for the ship. The only thing that always strikes me as more than slightly crazy about the whole thing is the seemingly continual back and forth about the usage of the title, that's all. I understand that many naval traditions while worth being kept by all means have purpose and meaning, I just never entirely understood entirely the need for having rear adm upr and lwr halves, when the commodore title was available for use terminologically, that's all I'm trying to convey, I'd be most eager for any thoughts, many thanks just historical curiosity, honest. It's rather like the whole thing about ADM Dewey being ADM of the Navy, the whole thing with gen Pershing as genl of the armies actually on his tombstone I've seen the picture, and genl Pershing having opted for four gold stars for his uniform, instead of the normal four silver ones, in place of a six star circlet five like those of gens Eisenhower or the other five stars , with one in the center, which always just struck me as the completely logical approach, you know? Granted such senior officers have option to choose, or it depends on how Congress approves things, I realize that, it's just that such erratic arcamia, if you will, while of historical interest, certainly, is seemingly calculated as deliberately designed to drive the serious student of history to distraction lol. I've also never understood why, e.g., the chair and vice chair of the jcs since therell obv eventually quite deservedly be females in those roles, OTS obv inevitable to me only a matter of time, aren't given five or six star rank, akin to the whole field marshal and or grand admiral European traditions. I realize ww2 was a unique case, and that there'd been a comgrsnl effort to promote genl MacArthur to six stars which I'd read Jed aprntly said to pls stop, I'd gathered, I just figured I'd mention all those thoughts here, for whatever debate such ideas on my part might engender, many thanks.
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LCDR Student
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A commodore is a captain who has the responsibilities of an admiral. Commodore used to be an actual rank prior to the creation of rear admiral lower and upper halls. This was dropped because Commodores were seen as being part of the admiralty so the rank was renamed rear admiral lower half to avoid confusion with the previously existing rank of rear admiral. Commodore is now more a title of responsibility rather than pay grade.
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PO1 Joseph Frazier
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An O-3 is referred to as Captain when he or she holds the position of commanding officer. I worked for a Captain that was a Commodore. He had Command of a Squadron on ships. I believe this is why they are called Commodore.
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PO2 Ron Burling
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1. When he commands a TF or group.
2. When he is the Commanding Officer of a shipboard Marine detachment.
3. When they command a vessel.
4. Boatswain Mate, the senior rate in the Navy.
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