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A recent U.S. Army War College study states "dishonesty and deception" among Army personnel is common, often encouraged to maintain a false sense of integrity.
Under what circumstances is it acceptable to be dishonest or deceive your superiors while in uniform? Have you ever done this, or seen others do it?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/02/20/study-soldiers-of-all-ranks-engage-in-dishonesty-and-deception.html?ESRC=eb.nl
Under what circumstances is it acceptable to be dishonest or deceive your superiors while in uniform? Have you ever done this, or seen others do it?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/02/20/study-soldiers-of-all-ranks-engage-in-dishonesty-and-deception.html?ESRC=eb.nl
Values
Honesty
Integrity
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 13
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CSM (Join to see)
I posted the actual study here on RP. The media has gotten a hold of it and put their spin on, making it look like all our officers are blatant liars. I would encourage everyone to read the study (executive summary is shorter) and then ask yourself if our officers or seniors are actually lying?
Example: Unit is getting ready to deploy and brigade tells you two things need to get done.
1. Online TARP training
2. Weapons qualification
Let's say there is only time for you to accomplish one of those to standard. Which one do you pick? Which one is more important?
I would probably prioritize and ensure my unit was 100% qualified on their assigned weapons. If asked from higher I would tell them we were good to go on TARP.
That was a quick generic example but it's the kind of things the article talks about. The article calls it "ethical fading", read the executive summary and form your own opinions but I can see where the officers are coming from.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1250
I posted the actual study here on RP. The media has gotten a hold of it and put their spin on, making it look like all our officers are blatant liars. I would encourage everyone to read the study (executive summary is shorter) and then ask yourself if our officers or seniors are actually lying?
Example: Unit is getting ready to deploy and brigade tells you two things need to get done.
1. Online TARP training
2. Weapons qualification
Let's say there is only time for you to accomplish one of those to standard. Which one do you pick? Which one is more important?
I would probably prioritize and ensure my unit was 100% qualified on their assigned weapons. If asked from higher I would tell them we were good to go on TARP.
That was a quick generic example but it's the kind of things the article talks about. The article calls it "ethical fading", read the executive summary and form your own opinions but I can see where the officers are coming from.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1250
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CSM (Join to see)
SFC James Sczymanski , you have no idea how bad it is at my level - having O6's lying to GO's and there is nothing that can be done about it. I came to realize the GO's didn't WANT to know the 'truth' - I'm so glad I am out of the PC bullshit and politics at that level. For some I'm a failure or sell out, but I just couldn't put up with it, and the higher you go, the worst it gets.
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CSM (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see) and SFC James Sczymanski the reality is the political arm of the Army has killed candor. Nobody wants to hear "we can't do that", even if there is a legitimate reason it can't be accomplished.
The Army has become so "zero defect" that leaders can't learn hard lessons by making mistakes anymore. The pressure the officers are under with the way they are evaluated on their OERs is intense. They have to cover their asses constantly or end up in the bottom of the stack and get the boot.
The NCOER is changing to look more like the OER so I am sure it will have the same effect on NCOs. Damn shame!
The Army has become so "zero defect" that leaders can't learn hard lessons by making mistakes anymore. The pressure the officers are under with the way they are evaluated on their OERs is intense. They have to cover their asses constantly or end up in the bottom of the stack and get the boot.
The NCOER is changing to look more like the OER so I am sure it will have the same effect on NCOs. Damn shame!
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CW4 (Join to see)
Surprisingly I did not read the study I read the article that appeared on the Army Times website. I can say that some of the items that were used in that article I saw not only in the Army but in the Air Force as well. As the article brought up more and more training requirements are being placed upon units that they cannot achieve them all. Furthermore, there is no schedule to speak of because most senior officers (in this I mean 06) do not want to the boss and say I cannot perform the mission you have assigned due to other requirements. Instead they give the north south head nod and say boss we can give more even though we don’t have enough personnel or equipment and never mind that things you need to get done should have been coordinated a month or two ago. Not to mention the fact that events that just happened or are going to happen in the future need to be described to the commander time now. For example, a training event that is scheduled next week the commander needs to know this week how the training went and people are willing to give him the answer. Even though this answer is completely made up it is an answer none the less.
I read an article a few months back regarding the term “selective disobedience” which I found very interesting it looks as though this may need to make a comeback. For anyone intrested the article can be read here:
Surprisingly I did not read the study I read the article that appeared on the Army Times website. I can say that some of the items that were used in that article I saw not only in the Army but in the Air Force as well. As the article brought up more and more training requirements are being placed upon units that they cannot achieve them all. Furthermore, there is no schedule to speak of because most senior officers (in this I mean 06) do not want to the boss and say I cannot perform the mission you have assigned due to other requirements. Instead they give the north south head nod and say boss we can give more even though we don’t have enough personnel or equipment and never mind that things you need to get done should have been coordinated a month or two ago. Not to mention the fact that events that just happened or are going to happen in the future need to be described to the commander time now. For example, a training event that is scheduled next week the commander needs to know this week how the training went and people are willing to give him the answer. Even though this answer is completely made up it is an answer none the less.
I read an article a few months back regarding the term “selective disobedience” which I found very interesting it looks as though this may need to make a comeback. For anyone curious in the article it can be found here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-armys-next-enemy-peace/2014/07/10/f02b5180-f0dc-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html
I read an article a few months back regarding the term “selective disobedience” which I found very interesting it looks as though this may need to make a comeback. For anyone intrested the article can be read here:
Surprisingly I did not read the study I read the article that appeared on the Army Times website. I can say that some of the items that were used in that article I saw not only in the Army but in the Air Force as well. As the article brought up more and more training requirements are being placed upon units that they cannot achieve them all. Furthermore, there is no schedule to speak of because most senior officers (in this I mean 06) do not want to the boss and say I cannot perform the mission you have assigned due to other requirements. Instead they give the north south head nod and say boss we can give more even though we don’t have enough personnel or equipment and never mind that things you need to get done should have been coordinated a month or two ago. Not to mention the fact that events that just happened or are going to happen in the future need to be described to the commander time now. For example, a training event that is scheduled next week the commander needs to know this week how the training went and people are willing to give him the answer. Even though this answer is completely made up it is an answer none the less.
I read an article a few months back regarding the term “selective disobedience” which I found very interesting it looks as though this may need to make a comeback. For anyone curious in the article it can be found here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-armys-next-enemy-peace/2014/07/10/f02b5180-f0dc-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html
The Army’s next enemy? Peace.
How the demands of bureaucracy could stifle leadership.
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1SG (Join to see)
Are you ready for this....it is no different on the Garrison side of the installation with the Garrison Directorates, whose Directors for the most part are retired 05/06. With the downsiziing that has happened and the still more to come by FY17 on the civilian side, it's a two sided mirror. Requirements, reports, taskers, askers from higher headquarters increase, and personnel decrease. I attended the IMCOM Emergency Manager Signature Course in March at San Antonio, TX. The Deputy PM, made a comment "EMs are not doing a good job or relating the EM/AT mission and selling themselves and the EM/AT Program to their senior commanders!" The room erupted in outburst, and I just so happened to be the 1st one to get speak back and I said, "Well that's easy for you to say sitting here at IMCOM Headquarters, however, you have no damn clue what the fuck goes on at my installation nor any of the other 22 installations represented in the room today! If you did, you would be standing here, telling us how in the hell you as the higher headquarters plan to help us accomplish that mission. I work in the Garrison DPTMS, between me and Sr. Cdr I have a Garrsion Cd 06r, DPTMS Director GS15 , a Plans and Ops Div. Chief GS14, a Protection Br. Chief GS 13....and you're right about one thing, I haven't sold the Sr. Cdr a damn thing....I'll never get to speak to him unless I get lucky and can ambush his ass in the barber shop....now do you have any recommendations to help us, if not then you've wasted IMCOMs money in bringing me out here for two weeks. Needless to say, I doubt if I will be attending anything at IMCOM Headquarters again for anything! But the round of applause from my fellow EMs was enough. Then they all got started as the shit continued to roll down hill. It was not a good day for the Deputy PM/P. Arrogant Ass!
I hate to say, it's no better on the Garrison side .....all the way up the chain either.
I hate to say, it's no better on the Garrison side .....all the way up the chain either.
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CSM Jim Dula, I have always thought that the West Point and other service academy's Honor code is meant to permeate and influence the US Military's standards of Ethics?
What is going on? "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do"
That is only a guideline for service at West Point?
I will never forget a Colonel telling me that he would never be a general; that a previous Div CG had ruined the careers of every O-6 in his command w/ negative OERs because the division had not performed as desired in a FTX or ?
Regretfully, some of the officer corps should be treated aspoliticians and unhorsed!
What is going on? "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do"
That is only a guideline for service at West Point?
I will never forget a Colonel telling me that he would never be a general; that a previous Div CG had ruined the careers of every O-6 in his command w/ negative OERs because the division had not performed as desired in a FTX or ?
Regretfully, some of the officer corps should be treated aspoliticians and unhorsed!
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The annual / semi / Quarterly training we are mandated to do detracts from the training troops really need. If I had flubbed the 350-1 numbers in 07, I could have spent more time training dismounted patrols in preparation for the surge. Never in a million years did I expect a signal company to be used as infantry but it happened. We were lucky and did not get hit but my Soldiers were not prepared for it if we were. I will never make the same mistake again.
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I commented somewhere else, but I think it got closed out as being a duplicate. But it bears repeating.
CSM (Join to see) made the case that your unit is deploying and you have two things to do and only time to do one... I make the case that your unit is deploying, they give you 5 things to do and you only have time for 1, now what? Or you're a Reserve transportation unit and you have 37 days to train, and the Pentagon gives you 180 days of mandatory training that has absolutely nothing to do with driving a truck. On top of that you have two weapons qualifications you are required to hold and two APFTs... So what gives?
The real issue here is, when do you tell the emperor he has no clothes? There is a culture in the Officer corps to never say no to a General. I have met a few courageous ones who have told them this is just too much.
So Officers have a habit of being creative in responding to outrageous training requirements. Surprise?!
Soldiers in the Reserves are dropping out in droves because they are sick of having to sit in classrooms watching powerpoint classes instead of training to do the jobs they enlisted for.
CSM (Join to see) made the case that your unit is deploying and you have two things to do and only time to do one... I make the case that your unit is deploying, they give you 5 things to do and you only have time for 1, now what? Or you're a Reserve transportation unit and you have 37 days to train, and the Pentagon gives you 180 days of mandatory training that has absolutely nothing to do with driving a truck. On top of that you have two weapons qualifications you are required to hold and two APFTs... So what gives?
The real issue here is, when do you tell the emperor he has no clothes? There is a culture in the Officer corps to never say no to a General. I have met a few courageous ones who have told them this is just too much.
So Officers have a habit of being creative in responding to outrageous training requirements. Surprise?!
Soldiers in the Reserves are dropping out in droves because they are sick of having to sit in classrooms watching powerpoint classes instead of training to do the jobs they enlisted for.
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BLUF: Dishonesty and deception are never acceptable.
CSM Jim Dula – my personal experience is that it happens most often at staff level (MACOM and higher) to pacify the GOs, congressional inquiries, etc. Your analogy of “the emperor has no clothes” is spot on.
At unit level, I’ve usually observed it in weak people trying to get by. If a troop is proficient in their MOS or AFSC, they can respectfully speak honestly without significant risk.
The careerism that was observed in the commissioned ranks from the Vietnam era onward has now become a cancer in the NCO ranks as well. This has laid the groundwork for inflation in performance reports, “thanks for playing” medals for substandard downrange service and brutal competition for those “station of the cross” schools and special duty assignments. I saw one SNCO crying because they failed to receive distinguished graduate at SNCO Academy; they believed that they were now noncompetitive for Command Chief positions in the future should they be otherwise eligible.
MAJ Carl Ballinger – I’m sorry to disappoint you Sir, but I found that the civilian sector is as bad – if not more so – than the military. Civilians are focused on corporate profits and short term goals; the military arguably has more altruistic goals.
When the focus is turned inward, team objectives suffer. Samuel Johnson, an 18th century English writer once said “Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful.”
CSM Jim Dula – my personal experience is that it happens most often at staff level (MACOM and higher) to pacify the GOs, congressional inquiries, etc. Your analogy of “the emperor has no clothes” is spot on.
At unit level, I’ve usually observed it in weak people trying to get by. If a troop is proficient in their MOS or AFSC, they can respectfully speak honestly without significant risk.
The careerism that was observed in the commissioned ranks from the Vietnam era onward has now become a cancer in the NCO ranks as well. This has laid the groundwork for inflation in performance reports, “thanks for playing” medals for substandard downrange service and brutal competition for those “station of the cross” schools and special duty assignments. I saw one SNCO crying because they failed to receive distinguished graduate at SNCO Academy; they believed that they were now noncompetitive for Command Chief positions in the future should they be otherwise eligible.
MAJ Carl Ballinger – I’m sorry to disappoint you Sir, but I found that the civilian sector is as bad – if not more so – than the military. Civilians are focused on corporate profits and short term goals; the military arguably has more altruistic goals.
When the focus is turned inward, team objectives suffer. Samuel Johnson, an 18th century English writer once said “Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful.”
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SFC (Join to see)
Good points and quotes. It seems that the Army Values is eroded where dishonesty and lying are the new normal for those in superior positions.
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I read an article titled something along the lines of "Beating the admin crunch" awhile back. In there it mentioned that if a Reserve Component unit was to do all of the administrative taskings, briefings, etc to standard they would need more training time than the allotted 39 days in each fiscal year. There's simply not enough time to do it all, let alone train to do our actual jobs.
I'm not in any way condoning dishonesty. However, I've had senior commanders tell me to "check the block" on more than one occasion in my career. Like CSM Oldsen mentioned, there's been times where I've had to decide between something essential like weapons or medical training and the latest shiny object from higher. In the Officer world we call it "accepting risk." Even how we build our Mission Essential Task List encourages this behavior. We put more on the METL than we can actually accomplish. How can a task be "essential" and be something we accept risk on?
I think we need to take a good hard look at the amount of requirements we're putting on units. The USMC is working on lessening a lot of the admin requirements that bog down units. The Army would do well to follow suit.
I'm not in any way condoning dishonesty. However, I've had senior commanders tell me to "check the block" on more than one occasion in my career. Like CSM Oldsen mentioned, there's been times where I've had to decide between something essential like weapons or medical training and the latest shiny object from higher. In the Officer world we call it "accepting risk." Even how we build our Mission Essential Task List encourages this behavior. We put more on the METL than we can actually accomplish. How can a task be "essential" and be something we accept risk on?
I think we need to take a good hard look at the amount of requirements we're putting on units. The USMC is working on lessening a lot of the admin requirements that bog down units. The Army would do well to follow suit.
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LTC David Gunn
LT Goenner,
Absolutely agree in no way should a unit/commander/individual be dishonest. I guess it is how one defines accepting risk. As an instructor at CGSC I used to have these very discussions with the majors. It is not a gamble or a risk it is an informed command decision. What do I mean? When we were preparing soldier/units for OIF there was over 3000 FORSCOM requirements for a deploying unit. A commander must know what these requirements are, know his/her unit, know what they are capable of doing and prioritize the requirements. Once a priority list is determined integrate the requirements into training. Using your example, every unit wastes time. One doesn't need a special block of instruction for "X" admin requirement build that requirement into your day/training.
And the those requirements at the end of the priority list the commander MFR those as training conducted during >>>>. (His/her choose).
A short war story. As a young company commander when I took my command we had five formations a day!!!! The 1SG and I changed it to one. Accountability, first thing in the morning and first line leaders reports at the end of the day. Saved over two hours of soldier time and provided time for "admin" requirements and other training.
Regarding your comment on METL tasks. The Army went to a uniformed METL list for types of units. The specifics of those tasks are agreed upon by the line commander and the DIV/BDE commander. If I am a MNVR CMD I have three tasks. Attack, Defense, Deploy, how each are articulated in collective tasks are specific to each.
Absolutely agree in no way should a unit/commander/individual be dishonest. I guess it is how one defines accepting risk. As an instructor at CGSC I used to have these very discussions with the majors. It is not a gamble or a risk it is an informed command decision. What do I mean? When we were preparing soldier/units for OIF there was over 3000 FORSCOM requirements for a deploying unit. A commander must know what these requirements are, know his/her unit, know what they are capable of doing and prioritize the requirements. Once a priority list is determined integrate the requirements into training. Using your example, every unit wastes time. One doesn't need a special block of instruction for "X" admin requirement build that requirement into your day/training.
And the those requirements at the end of the priority list the commander MFR those as training conducted during >>>>. (His/her choose).
A short war story. As a young company commander when I took my command we had five formations a day!!!! The 1SG and I changed it to one. Accountability, first thing in the morning and first line leaders reports at the end of the day. Saved over two hours of soldier time and provided time for "admin" requirements and other training.
Regarding your comment on METL tasks. The Army went to a uniformed METL list for types of units. The specifics of those tasks are agreed upon by the line commander and the DIV/BDE commander. If I am a MNVR CMD I have three tasks. Attack, Defense, Deploy, how each are articulated in collective tasks are specific to each.
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We need honesty and integrity to be pure and it takes moral courage. Without honesty and integrity we become a corrupt organization.
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Dishonesty and deception is warranted in combat against an armed enemy. That's the only circumstance where I can justify it.
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I don't think it's ever permissible to be dishonest with one's superiors. That's just plain wrong. Be what you are with your colleagues and your superiors. Do your best. If that's not good enough, then so be it. Do not resort to deception and dishonesty.
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Dishonesty is a fundamental part of human behavior... Even infants practice deception before they can talk..
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