Posted on Apr 6, 2016
When will the Military stop conforming to the volunteer and start upholding the standard rules and regulations?
45.6K
236
67
38
38
0
No Saluting, Less formations, Grow a beard for religious beliefs, ETC... Everyone signed a contract to abide and to adhere to ”All Military Rules/Regulations and Traditions “. Today, it seems that the Army is conforming to the Volunteer. The New Army Standard is: Conform to the Soldier and discard rules/regulations and tradition. Leaders, where does is stop?
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 45
SFC, I'd need to see examples of what you're talking about. "No Saluting"? What do you mean? Even in the military, we cannot trump federal laws that prohibit discrimination. When was the last time you've worn your pro-mask in a combat area? So for the Army to try to use that as justification to keep them out, was wrong. The Army is an living evolving entity. Those regulation you mention are revised, can be revised, and it's up to the leaders to conform or get out. The same way we tell our Soldiers. Traditions? What traditions are you talking about?
If the Army is a living breathing entity it has to change. Note women in combat arms, women who are Rangers, women in three and four star positions. Something 30 years ago would NEVER have happened. Minorities who aren't relegated to being cooks, drivers, or other mundane jobs. That was the Army we're ALL a part of, and it changed for the better. I'm not calling you close minded, but if you cannot see that the military as a whole is an evolving process and the largest social project ever, then it's not the Army who has a problem. BTW I don't see WAC on your profile. So there must've been a change in things to allow you to enlist into the regular Army and not be relegated to some secondary MOS in the WAC.
So I'll ask again what ”All Military Rules/Regulations and Traditions “, are you talking about?
If the Army is a living breathing entity it has to change. Note women in combat arms, women who are Rangers, women in three and four star positions. Something 30 years ago would NEVER have happened. Minorities who aren't relegated to being cooks, drivers, or other mundane jobs. That was the Army we're ALL a part of, and it changed for the better. I'm not calling you close minded, but if you cannot see that the military as a whole is an evolving process and the largest social project ever, then it's not the Army who has a problem. BTW I don't see WAC on your profile. So there must've been a change in things to allow you to enlist into the regular Army and not be relegated to some secondary MOS in the WAC.
So I'll ask again what ”All Military Rules/Regulations and Traditions “, are you talking about?
(34)
(0)
SSG Dennis Grossmann
Across the pond and in smoking areas are the only two places I can recall no salute zones. One was for safety and the other was so that the officer could get a smoke in.
(3)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
Certain things are good for evolution but the discipline has also evolved as it has leaders handcuffed from actually administering it. You may think that everything is all hunky dory and change is great but there needs to be a stopping point to the change or we are gonna get rolled in a near peer war
(0)
(0)
Unfortunately this is only going to happen after a bunch of our sons (and daughters now as well, I guess) get killed fighting a near-peer enemy.
It is going to take us getting kicked int the teeth to see that we are sacrificing combat effectiveness for the sake of political correctness.
Fundamentally, if it doesn't enhance lethality, increase the effects on a target, or is part of the warfightimg functions, we shouldn't be doing it.
The military is not a Petri dish and combat is not a "game." The results of it are real and sometimes very permanent for those involved.
This is why I am absolutely opposed to a decrease in function for the sake of accomodation.
Our people, our children/ brothers/ fathers/sisters/mothers will die because we are spending energy on priorities other than: shoot, move, communicate, and see.
This unnecessary loss will occur because agendas and cowardice by those in power/command.
It is going to take us getting kicked int the teeth to see that we are sacrificing combat effectiveness for the sake of political correctness.
Fundamentally, if it doesn't enhance lethality, increase the effects on a target, or is part of the warfightimg functions, we shouldn't be doing it.
The military is not a Petri dish and combat is not a "game." The results of it are real and sometimes very permanent for those involved.
This is why I am absolutely opposed to a decrease in function for the sake of accomodation.
Our people, our children/ brothers/ fathers/sisters/mothers will die because we are spending energy on priorities other than: shoot, move, communicate, and see.
This unnecessary loss will occur because agendas and cowardice by those in power/command.
(23)
(0)
There are too many hurt feelings these days. Soldiers have lost that rough and tough tradition that made us strong as an Army. I came in the Army when was "Be All You Can Be, in the Army". "now it's walk litely before someone ruins your career"
(23)
(0)
The military has a lot of great History, Tradition, and even Rules. It does. It also has a lot of Bloody Stupid History, Tradition, and Rules. And anyone who says it doesn't is lying to themselves.
The most beautiful part of the US Military is that when we identify the stupid, we're able to change it, hopefully for the better.
Some of those changes are going to come from internal. We're going to realize things don't work and we'll actively change them. Some of them are going to be forced upon us from ABOVE and OUTSIDE aka Congress. Remember we work for them.
Although we are Apolitical, we are a warfighting organization for a political body, of a political Nation. Politics and beliefs in general change over time. That means we have to evolve with them. It's really that simple.
The most beautiful part of the US Military is that when we identify the stupid, we're able to change it, hopefully for the better.
Some of those changes are going to come from internal. We're going to realize things don't work and we'll actively change them. Some of them are going to be forced upon us from ABOVE and OUTSIDE aka Congress. Remember we work for them.
Although we are Apolitical, we are a warfighting organization for a political body, of a political Nation. Politics and beliefs in general change over time. That means we have to evolve with them. It's really that simple.
(7)
(0)
I seen a lot of things change in the Army between 1987 and 2013. Some for the better, some for the worse. Change can be uncomfortable and often stirs skepticism, especially when it involves changing a tradition. Around 1990, the BOSS program (Better Opportunities for Soldiers) and the SSI (Single Soldier Initiative) was put into effect in the Army. The old timers hated it and thought it was going to kill good order and discipline. Prior to that, single Soldiers living in the barracks had to live in a sterile, dress-right dress environment, right down to OD wool blankets on the bunks, footgear lined up, wall locker SOP's, and absolutely ZERO civilian decoration unless it was inside your wall locker door. Floors had to be buffed and shinning like glass. CQ was posted downstairs, and opposite sex visitors were prohibited. You get the picture. While this is fine in a training environment to institute tradition and foster discipline, it was unnecessary for garrison Soldiers at their permanent duty station. The biggest reason for the change was that quality of life for a single Soldier in the barracks was vastly different than a married one of equal rank who lived off post or in govt housing. That change made a Soldier's life better, and did not kill tradition, good order, and discipline as the old guard predicted.
(6)
(0)
SFC (Join to see) The military reflects society and, as society changes, so does the military. While I am certainly old school and disagree with much of what is happening in the military today, especially all the PC/social engineering BS that, in my opinion, undermines discipline and adversely impacts mission accomplishment, it is simply the world we all live in today.
Having said that, leaders still need to uphold/enforce standards, rules and regulations. That has not changed (even though some of the standards, rules and regulations have).
Having said that, leaders still need to uphold/enforce standards, rules and regulations. That has not changed (even though some of the standards, rules and regulations have).
(6)
(0)
Did the Army really do away with saluting? I don't keep up with current stuff anymore. As to formations, seems to me the fewer the better, but I guess that's just a personal preference. Once I retired and worked in a civilian software company, it really struck me how much time we wasted in the military between formations and meetings. When you actually pay employees for their time at work, and they can't produce revenue from a meeting room, you realize how horrible the Army is at valuing peoples time and how much time and money is wasted.
(6)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
CW4 (Join to see) - In the rear in RVN we still had to salute. Had several friends in infantry, said in the field they didn't salute. Vietcong and regulars knew who was and officer from saluting, and would target them. I know what your thinking and it did happen!
(2)
(0)
SFC (Join to see) We see a great deal of "uphold the standards!" arguments here on RallyPoint, and, most of the time, it really does seem like those who have issues with standards "not being upheld" generally have no idea what standard it is that they are trying to uphold. In the case of religious accommodation, a standard exists. As such, its surprising that an NCO would have an issue with it (given the role of the NCO in enforcing standards, a huge part of which is actually knowing the standard which NCOs are tasked to uphold).
So, for your consideration:
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf, paragraph 5-6.
So, for your consideration:
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf, paragraph 5-6.
(5)
(0)
SFC (Join to see) My granddaddy got out in 1920 because the Army was going to ‘Hell in a hand basket’! Hold on, change ain't done yit!
(5)
(0)
Read This Next

Leadership Development
Training Soldiers
New Soldiers
NCOPD
NCO Academy
