Posted on May 16, 2015
Why do some people feel the need to be openly antagonistic to Christians?
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Why is it that there are people out there who feel it's their duty to abuse others verbally? I'm asking this in the context of people specifically going on the offensive because they are atheist (think Richard Dawkins, only more abusive), and the other person claims a faith, usually Christianity.
I mean, I know people who have NO beliefs in common with mine, but we can have philosophical discussions all day long without any animosity. Then there's the rather witty and very intelligent people that, once they discover a person is a Christian, flip a switch and become a shark in a feeding frenzy...
I can respect your lack of faith, even though it saddens me. I only ask that you respect mine.
***Editing Note: On 21 May 2015, I removed the tag "Politics." As the OP, I don't intend this question as an antagonistic one nor do I intend it as a political one. I am simply attempting to gain insight into the motivation behind behavior that I have personally witnessed.
I mean, I know people who have NO beliefs in common with mine, but we can have philosophical discussions all day long without any animosity. Then there's the rather witty and very intelligent people that, once they discover a person is a Christian, flip a switch and become a shark in a feeding frenzy...
I can respect your lack of faith, even though it saddens me. I only ask that you respect mine.
***Editing Note: On 21 May 2015, I removed the tag "Politics." As the OP, I don't intend this question as an antagonistic one nor do I intend it as a political one. I am simply attempting to gain insight into the motivation behind behavior that I have personally witnessed.
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Christianity
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Sir-
Very respectfully, people are antagonistic in general. I have to be on guard 100% of the time if I am being needlessly combative.
As one spiritual person to another (I still respect your rank, but just asking that what I say next is just considered as one person to another), antagonistic people are actually opportunities. Sharks can be easily led by the scent of blood. Use it to your advantage.
Very respectfully, people are antagonistic in general. I have to be on guard 100% of the time if I am being needlessly combative.
As one spiritual person to another (I still respect your rank, but just asking that what I say next is just considered as one person to another), antagonistic people are actually opportunities. Sharks can be easily led by the scent of blood. Use it to your advantage.
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I believe that both are wrong on both sides. I get tired of hearing atheists push their ideas on me. I don't, I am a catholic that does not push my views on people and I never would. I do see certain Christians that push their views on people overwhelmingly also. So I believe both sides are wrong and both sides spread hate fear and distrust.
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Capt Christian D. Orr
MAJ (Join to see) Well, let’s see, where to start. I’m unable to narrow it down to a single monolithic group, as it’s more of a hodgepodge of various HTT (Holier-Than-Thou) churches and individuals I’ve come across through various walks of life through the years, whom either (A) I’ve met in-person or (B) whose diatribes I’ve read or heard on TV. Here’s part of the laundry list:
(1) Pastor Byron MacDonald of the Rolling Hills Covenant Church in Rolling Hills, CA, and author of “The Morning Comes and Also the Night.”
(2) Members of this cult group calling itself the Church of God who comprised about a half-dozen of my co-workers at the National Call Center of Public Storage, Inc. in Glendale, CA from August 1998 to September 1999; not only did a bunch of these Church of God types say, “I used to be Catholic, but now I’m Christian,” one of them, an ex-Navy frogman named Larry (his surname escapes me at the moment,sorry) asserted that not only are Catholics not real Christians, but that the Catholics were in fact the ancient Romans who murdered Christians. “Read your history,” this a$$hole growled at me. I guess he ignored that part of history where in fact the Roman Empire converted to Catholic Christianity
(3) My collegiate roommate during my semester in DC on the Washington Semester Program back in the Spring of 1996.
(4) Pastor Mark Dever, the pastor whom my ex-roommate in #3 befriended during that semester, and who presided over a church on Capitol Hill whose name escapes me at the moment. Dever loved showing his congregation this propaganda film which depicted Catholics as still having a 16th century mentality.
(5) Random street preacher kooks at the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica, CA I had the displeasure to meeting back on Easter Saturday, 2007.
(6) Several of my cross-line associates in my Amway/Quixtar business network (as a side note, don’t worry, I’m no longer in Amway, so I’m not gonna try to solicit any of y’all, nyuk nyuk), who, among other things, gave me grief because (A) “You drink?!?!” and (2) “You have to declare Jesus Christ to be your personal Lord and Savior to be saved!” (Um, hello, McFly, we make that declaration when we say the Nicene Creed!)
(7) The Jack Chick tracts.
(8) Several of my co-workers at my last contract in Japan, who had a Bible study clique that denounced Catholicism as not being real Christianity, and whose individual names I’m not ging to mention here as at least a couple of them are members of RallyPoint and I have no desire to engage them in a pissing contest here.
(9) A random scumbag, going by the username “One Way” on Amazon.Com who viciously personally attacked me and my Church as idolaters and child molesters in response to my book review of “Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church” by the Right Rev. Henry G. Graham
(10) A couple of posters on USCFootball.Com (yes, that’s a college football forum, but we also have a non-sports sub-forum called “The General Discussion Board” wherein we discuss non-sports subjects such as the dreaded politics and religion).
As you can see, a very diffuse bunch. So my apologies if I created the impression that I’m painting ALL Evangelicals with a broad brush, and I appreciate the respect you’ve articulated for my Church. That’s why I’ve coined the “HTT” acronym I used in my opening paragraph as a more general terminology for the varying and disparate group Catholic-bashers, whether they consider themselves Evangelicals, “born-agains,” “Bible Christians,” generic non-denominationals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or whatever specific label they attach to themselves. Fair enough, good sir?
(1) Pastor Byron MacDonald of the Rolling Hills Covenant Church in Rolling Hills, CA, and author of “The Morning Comes and Also the Night.”
(2) Members of this cult group calling itself the Church of God who comprised about a half-dozen of my co-workers at the National Call Center of Public Storage, Inc. in Glendale, CA from August 1998 to September 1999; not only did a bunch of these Church of God types say, “I used to be Catholic, but now I’m Christian,” one of them, an ex-Navy frogman named Larry (his surname escapes me at the moment,sorry) asserted that not only are Catholics not real Christians, but that the Catholics were in fact the ancient Romans who murdered Christians. “Read your history,” this a$$hole growled at me. I guess he ignored that part of history where in fact the Roman Empire converted to Catholic Christianity
(3) My collegiate roommate during my semester in DC on the Washington Semester Program back in the Spring of 1996.
(4) Pastor Mark Dever, the pastor whom my ex-roommate in #3 befriended during that semester, and who presided over a church on Capitol Hill whose name escapes me at the moment. Dever loved showing his congregation this propaganda film which depicted Catholics as still having a 16th century mentality.
(5) Random street preacher kooks at the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica, CA I had the displeasure to meeting back on Easter Saturday, 2007.
(6) Several of my cross-line associates in my Amway/Quixtar business network (as a side note, don’t worry, I’m no longer in Amway, so I’m not gonna try to solicit any of y’all, nyuk nyuk), who, among other things, gave me grief because (A) “You drink?!?!” and (2) “You have to declare Jesus Christ to be your personal Lord and Savior to be saved!” (Um, hello, McFly, we make that declaration when we say the Nicene Creed!)
(7) The Jack Chick tracts.
(8) Several of my co-workers at my last contract in Japan, who had a Bible study clique that denounced Catholicism as not being real Christianity, and whose individual names I’m not ging to mention here as at least a couple of them are members of RallyPoint and I have no desire to engage them in a pissing contest here.
(9) A random scumbag, going by the username “One Way” on Amazon.Com who viciously personally attacked me and my Church as idolaters and child molesters in response to my book review of “Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church” by the Right Rev. Henry G. Graham
(10) A couple of posters on USCFootball.Com (yes, that’s a college football forum, but we also have a non-sports sub-forum called “The General Discussion Board” wherein we discuss non-sports subjects such as the dreaded politics and religion).
As you can see, a very diffuse bunch. So my apologies if I created the impression that I’m painting ALL Evangelicals with a broad brush, and I appreciate the respect you’ve articulated for my Church. That’s why I’ve coined the “HTT” acronym I used in my opening paragraph as a more general terminology for the varying and disparate group Catholic-bashers, whether they consider themselves Evangelicals, “born-agains,” “Bible Christians,” generic non-denominationals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or whatever specific label they attach to themselves. Fair enough, good sir?
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MAJ (Join to see)
Capt Christian D. Orr, more than fair enough; and enough intel for me to dig in and do my own homework. Thank you so much for your insightful rundown! Given experiences like that, I can appreciate where you are coming from. Did anyone get an ass-whoopin' along the way? I couldn't fault you if they did!
I was raised ELCA Lutheran, so much of the church doctrine I was raised with (Nicene Creed, Apostle's Creed, etc.) had a strong lineage in the Catholic tradition. I left the Lutheran Church when it took a hard left turn into progressive social politics and let those issues begin to trump church doctrine. Though I am active in an Evangelical Free Church now, I am a critical thinker and question them when they start to get too political. I do believe it is possible for a person to be born again, or more aptly, redeemed from sin, but I also point out to my Pastor that Evangelicals do not hold the patent on this concept, a lost Catholic can also find forgiveness and return to the fold at anytime as well.
I apologize for taking your initial comments so personally. This discussion of differences is so much better, and much more aligned with who we are supposed to be as Christians!
I was raised ELCA Lutheran, so much of the church doctrine I was raised with (Nicene Creed, Apostle's Creed, etc.) had a strong lineage in the Catholic tradition. I left the Lutheran Church when it took a hard left turn into progressive social politics and let those issues begin to trump church doctrine. Though I am active in an Evangelical Free Church now, I am a critical thinker and question them when they start to get too political. I do believe it is possible for a person to be born again, or more aptly, redeemed from sin, but I also point out to my Pastor that Evangelicals do not hold the patent on this concept, a lost Catholic can also find forgiveness and return to the fold at anytime as well.
I apologize for taking your initial comments so personally. This discussion of differences is so much better, and much more aligned with who we are supposed to be as Christians!
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Capt Christian D. Orr
No worries, MAJ (Join to see) , and thanks for the kind words.
Alas, tempting as it was, no, I didn't administer those well-deserved ar$e-whoopin's; you know as well as I do that in this kinder, gentler, politically correct day & age, that'd have earned me either (A) jail time; (B) an Article 15, (C) a lawsuit, or (D) all of the above. :-/
BTW, regarding the schmucks from example #10, i.e. the USCFootball.Com, one went by the username "Wewuzrobbed" and the other had two different handles, "MPA1988" and "JLB55." In the case of MPA/JLB, he claimed to have been both a USMC officer and a California Highway Patrol (CHP) trooper, though there are serious doubts as to the veracity of both of those claims....moreover, he proudly bragged about using racial epithets on a black suspect that he alleged to have beaten with his baton. A real piece of work.
Alas, tempting as it was, no, I didn't administer those well-deserved ar$e-whoopin's; you know as well as I do that in this kinder, gentler, politically correct day & age, that'd have earned me either (A) jail time; (B) an Article 15, (C) a lawsuit, or (D) all of the above. :-/
BTW, regarding the schmucks from example #10, i.e. the USCFootball.Com, one went by the username "Wewuzrobbed" and the other had two different handles, "MPA1988" and "JLB55." In the case of MPA/JLB, he claimed to have been both a USMC officer and a California Highway Patrol (CHP) trooper, though there are serious doubts as to the veracity of both of those claims....moreover, he proudly bragged about using racial epithets on a black suspect that he alleged to have beaten with his baton. A real piece of work.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
There are a lot of Christians who are jerks. I've come across quite a few. I have been one from time to time. A lot of people like to judge others as if they were born perfect. Christianity is a relationship with God and that relationship should reflect a friendly demeanor and positive outlook. Unfortunately, some people see it as a set of rules to live by and judge others by. I wish I could apologize for their behavior but what good would it do?
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So, let me comment from an academic point of view (and I apologize if this was covered by someone else's comment). These is such a thing as "belongingness theory" (yes, spelled correctly). People who belong to, or want to belong to certain groups take on all the attributes of the group to conform. That also means they will defend those attributes to show they belong. Groups may include the military (each branch has its own loyal attributes), parts of the country (Northerners, Southerners, Westerners - cowboys, etc.), social groups (bikers, fans of certain sports teams, etc.).
Groups also include faith systems. Each of the 50 or so different flavors of Baptists will defend their beliefs as if its the only "true" one (you can swap any faith for the word Baptist above). That's just the way we are since none of us want to belong to the wrong group - whatever that means.
For me, I can't see how anyone can challenge another's beliefs since they are "beliefs". No one can prove the correctness of any one faith although they can be convinced their faith is the right one.
For those who say "show me the proof of God", I'd say absence of proof doesn't mean proof of god's absence.
In the end, I don't think I need to convince you to believe the way I do - I have my basis for my beliefs and you have yours. If you decide to cut off some heads because of the differences, then that will have a difference response. Otherwise, I'd accept your point of view as your point of view - but not mine.
My apologies for the long comment - I don't mean to preach at anyone. Its a pet peeve of mine. Just my humble opinion.
Groups also include faith systems. Each of the 50 or so different flavors of Baptists will defend their beliefs as if its the only "true" one (you can swap any faith for the word Baptist above). That's just the way we are since none of us want to belong to the wrong group - whatever that means.
For me, I can't see how anyone can challenge another's beliefs since they are "beliefs". No one can prove the correctness of any one faith although they can be convinced their faith is the right one.
For those who say "show me the proof of God", I'd say absence of proof doesn't mean proof of god's absence.
In the end, I don't think I need to convince you to believe the way I do - I have my basis for my beliefs and you have yours. If you decide to cut off some heads because of the differences, then that will have a difference response. Otherwise, I'd accept your point of view as your point of view - but not mine.
My apologies for the long comment - I don't mean to preach at anyone. Its a pet peeve of mine. Just my humble opinion.
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MSgt Robert Pellam
Lt Col Timothy Parker, DBA Introspective response. I always believed in a personal theory similar to the "belongingness theory" but never explored that far down the Psychological tree in college to see if it was an actual theory. Psy101 is as far as I got, maybe Ill cover it in Management, or something (Im in my Senior year as a History Maj with a Minor in Management)
Anyway I just wanted to say thanks and no fears for being Preachy. To me your tone was perfect and you have given me something to go explore. Thanks.
Anyway I just wanted to say thanks and no fears for being Preachy. To me your tone was perfect and you have given me something to go explore. Thanks.
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Lt Col Timothy Parker, DBA
Congratulations on you continuing education. Belongingness is referred to in reference to psychological and management studies. I ran across it recently relative to a paper I'm writing on leadership. That concept opened my eyes to a lot is potential issues in a work setting. If you don't cover it in your studies, I'd be glad to send you a few references if you are interested.
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I reckon the atheist feel like they have been enslaved by the Christian faith all their lives and feel it is their duty to let every Christian know they have escaped the church and are now more intelligent with science than the sheep following any false god man created to enslave and control the masses and if they listen, he is giving them a chance to become as intelligent a fanatic as he has become much like the tv evangelist preach fire and brimstone to put the fear of God into you do donate all your wealth to them in the name of Christ Amen. Dominoes and biscuits et com espiritu tu O.. never quite got the Latin part. Anyway that's my thought on it... damit... which way did the sheep go.... admit I'm lost again.... here sheepie sheeps. Well fur sure the Shepard will come git me
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Maj (Join to see)
Still not sure how an atheist feels like they've been "enslaved" by Christians "all their lives." I realize that some atheists feel that someone saying, "Have a blessed day" equals a person "jamming" religion down their throat when really the person just wants someone to really have a blessed day. (That's a very positive greeting when you crack open the dictionary to look). In the end, (a very misquoted Hamlet quote) me think you doth protest too much. Also, with regards to the "sheep" comment, I see it as pretty childish and insulting for this thread.
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MSgt Manuel Diaz
Maj Melissa D I only answered the question as I see it not that you have to bow down to it. As a child in general most parents drug their kids to church and some may have felt that as a form of slavery to the church's. What in their life made them atheists, only they can tell you, and to hate Christianity another ... in my opinion.. right or wrong. The fact that I like to insert humor with my words is me, and me thinks you doth protest to much. You do have the right to be insulted, your choice but I am sure there is at least one who smiled or spit out his coffee
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Maj (Join to see)
I'll never equate insulting someone's religion, or them in general, as "humor". It's really sad that people think it's okay to make fun of things like that. Laugh away though but I do hope that you attempt to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see the effect your type of "humor" can have on others.
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MSgt Manuel Diaz
Maj Mellssa D what humor do you see in life, what do you smile or laugh about? I have worn the shoes of firefighters, emts, soldiers, airmen, construction worker, and many others and seen the effect my humor has on people. In general most appreciate the different viewpoint and knowing me do not take offense because Christians need to learn to laugh at themselves and not take offense every time something is said. It is true this is a bad time for Christians worldwide; however it is a sad fact that Christians do not unite, they devide into sects and make religious rules that further devide until they become fanatical and think their way is the only way...
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Sir, I do not know the anser, but I do get to see exactly what you are saying.
I get to watch people talk about their lack of faith all while telling me that I am ignorant for having faith in a higher power. No, I cannot see God, but I see his works. No, I cannot see the air I breath, but I know it is doing its job.
I get to watch people talk about their lack of faith all while telling me that I am ignorant for having faith in a higher power. No, I cannot see God, but I see his works. No, I cannot see the air I breath, but I know it is doing its job.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
I too am frustrated by people who assume that Christians are simply uneducated people blindly following religious leaders as though they were in a cult.
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CPT Jason Torpy
Good on you for sticking to your principles. I think it's a great leap of faith to go from what you see here to God, especially considering the flawed design of humans, our uncaring universe, and the splintered, contradictory religions of the world, but if that's good for you, then good to go. Better we look for something to agree about than fixate on the god question. I certainly wouldn't want to consider you uneducated. It's just a different choice.
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SGT Anthony Bussing
" assume that Christians are simply uneducated people blindly following religious leaders as though they were in a cult."...uneducated? probably not...but saying Christianity is a cult...is pretty dead on...
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LT Charles Baird
SGT Anthony Bussing
You say: "but saying Christianity is a cult...is pretty dead on..."
Is it because they follow a belief system? Then if so; if you are an American and believe in the American way of life and beliefs of the country; then you also can say that being an American is being part of a cult; and you would be pretty dead on…”
But instead you call being an American a part of a “CULTure”. What’s the difference? You live by a belief system either way. One however is forced upon you by political might if you wish to dwell in that area of the world; the other you choose whether or not to accept no matter where you live.
People want to attack Christianity because they feel that Christians want to spread their beliefs; well America wants to spread its beliefs; but it spreads its beliefs by military might and destruction over who it feels does not fit in with its belief system. Christians don’t have military might; they just have their voices.
You say: "but saying Christianity is a cult...is pretty dead on..."
Is it because they follow a belief system? Then if so; if you are an American and believe in the American way of life and beliefs of the country; then you also can say that being an American is being part of a cult; and you would be pretty dead on…”
But instead you call being an American a part of a “CULTure”. What’s the difference? You live by a belief system either way. One however is forced upon you by political might if you wish to dwell in that area of the world; the other you choose whether or not to accept no matter where you live.
People want to attack Christianity because they feel that Christians want to spread their beliefs; well America wants to spread its beliefs; but it spreads its beliefs by military might and destruction over who it feels does not fit in with its belief system. Christians don’t have military might; they just have their voices.
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It's because their father did not love them enough and their relationship with their mother was inappropriate.
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SGT Anthony Bussing
SSG (ret) William Martin wow...arent we all high on our self here...
I am an atheist...I was born into a strict catholic family...went to catholic school, went to mass three or four times a week. hell, I even wanted to become a priest once...then...I got out into the real world...and saw that if god loved us so much...why is this world such a crappy place?
God is omnipotent, right? he knows all...he sees all...so...since he knows and see everything, why did he set adam and eve up for failure?
Adam and eve...the first people....had two sons...they populated the earth...
which begs me to ask:
1. why did god insist on incest? three males...one female.....a husband, father and two sons and good ole Eve
2. we all are direct decedents of Adam and Eve...the Garden of Edan (I think we can all agree) was in Mesopotamia....but the human genome project traces the vast majority (roughly 97-98 %) of all human life...to deepest, darkest africa...
3. since we all descend from Eve...and mDNA is passed along the mothers genes...why do we not all have the same mDNA?
when these "religious scholars" can provide me with the answers to these facts that are verifiable, peer reviewable and provable...I might start believing again...until then...there is not one shred of evidence to make me believe that there is an all powerful, all knowing "god" just as there werent gods in Greece, Egypt and Rome...their gods were all proven false...Im sure this one isnt too far behind.
I am an atheist...I was born into a strict catholic family...went to catholic school, went to mass three or four times a week. hell, I even wanted to become a priest once...then...I got out into the real world...and saw that if god loved us so much...why is this world such a crappy place?
God is omnipotent, right? he knows all...he sees all...so...since he knows and see everything, why did he set adam and eve up for failure?
Adam and eve...the first people....had two sons...they populated the earth...
which begs me to ask:
1. why did god insist on incest? three males...one female.....a husband, father and two sons and good ole Eve
2. we all are direct decedents of Adam and Eve...the Garden of Edan (I think we can all agree) was in Mesopotamia....but the human genome project traces the vast majority (roughly 97-98 %) of all human life...to deepest, darkest africa...
3. since we all descend from Eve...and mDNA is passed along the mothers genes...why do we not all have the same mDNA?
when these "religious scholars" can provide me with the answers to these facts that are verifiable, peer reviewable and provable...I might start believing again...until then...there is not one shred of evidence to make me believe that there is an all powerful, all knowing "god" just as there werent gods in Greece, Egypt and Rome...their gods were all proven false...Im sure this one isnt too far behind.
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LT Charles Baird
SGT Anthony Bussing
If I may, please allow me to attempt an answer at some of what you are speaking of prior to where you say "which begs me to ask"
Why is this world such a crappy place?
Maybe the world is a crappy place because mankind has made it that way; we are the only species that will fight and kill each other just because we don’t agree with each other or because you said something that another person doesn’t like. No other species on the planet will do that. This world being a crappy place is TOTALLY mankind’s doing!!! You could ask: then why does God allow it? Because he allows free choice is the best answer I can give for this one; he allows us the freedom to choose what we will and won't do.
God is omnipotent, right? He knows all...he sees all...so...since he knows and sees everything, why did he set Adam and eve up for failure?
First omnipotent is “all powerful”; omniscient is “all knowing”; I believe omniscient is what you meant here; I not I apologize.
He didn’t set Adam and Eve up for failure; he allowed them freedom of choice; I (GOD) have told you all that you can and can’t have; you choose to follow my commands (rules) or you choose not to; if you choose not to then you will suffer the consequences. Which I am sure you know was separation from him and expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
Now I could ask you the same question about yourself; for instance if you have children and your children like cookies and you have a cookie jar in the middle of your kitchen/dining room table; and you tell your kids you can eat anything else in the house but you cannot eat the cookies and your kids don’t follow your command (rule) to not eat the cookies; are you going to let them go for not listening or are you going to punish them for not listening? You allowed your kids the freedom to choose whether to show their love by obeying you’re or not obeying you; in essence by bringing the cookies into your house YOU essentially set your kids up for failure.
Adam and eve...the first people....had two sons...they populated the earth...
Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters; the only two that are really talked about are Cain and Able. The bible says that Adam lived 930 years and begot sons and daughters – it never gives the exact amount of sons and daughters (Genesis 5:4)
You need to remember from your years of Catholic school that the Old Testament is broken down into sections (Pentateuch, historical books, poetic books, and prophetic books; so in essence the Old Testament is a history of a people (Hebrew Israelites); much like the American History books are the history of America. Not everything that happened through out the history of a people will be covered in any history book; only the things that are thought to be of importance. Take an American History book; how thick do you think the book would be if it was filled with everything that ever happened in American history up until today? And what would you care that on August 2, 1933 a woman named Mary Peachtree (made up name) gave birth to a baby at some hospital in never-never land?
You probably don't, it's irrelevant to what you need to know about American history. The bible is the same way; do you really need to know how many children Adam and Eve had; and which of their children procreated together; or do you just need to know what is relevant to the lesson?
Just some thoughts.
If I may, please allow me to attempt an answer at some of what you are speaking of prior to where you say "which begs me to ask"
Why is this world such a crappy place?
Maybe the world is a crappy place because mankind has made it that way; we are the only species that will fight and kill each other just because we don’t agree with each other or because you said something that another person doesn’t like. No other species on the planet will do that. This world being a crappy place is TOTALLY mankind’s doing!!! You could ask: then why does God allow it? Because he allows free choice is the best answer I can give for this one; he allows us the freedom to choose what we will and won't do.
God is omnipotent, right? He knows all...he sees all...so...since he knows and sees everything, why did he set Adam and eve up for failure?
First omnipotent is “all powerful”; omniscient is “all knowing”; I believe omniscient is what you meant here; I not I apologize.
He didn’t set Adam and Eve up for failure; he allowed them freedom of choice; I (GOD) have told you all that you can and can’t have; you choose to follow my commands (rules) or you choose not to; if you choose not to then you will suffer the consequences. Which I am sure you know was separation from him and expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
Now I could ask you the same question about yourself; for instance if you have children and your children like cookies and you have a cookie jar in the middle of your kitchen/dining room table; and you tell your kids you can eat anything else in the house but you cannot eat the cookies and your kids don’t follow your command (rule) to not eat the cookies; are you going to let them go for not listening or are you going to punish them for not listening? You allowed your kids the freedom to choose whether to show their love by obeying you’re or not obeying you; in essence by bringing the cookies into your house YOU essentially set your kids up for failure.
Adam and eve...the first people....had two sons...they populated the earth...
Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters; the only two that are really talked about are Cain and Able. The bible says that Adam lived 930 years and begot sons and daughters – it never gives the exact amount of sons and daughters (Genesis 5:4)
You need to remember from your years of Catholic school that the Old Testament is broken down into sections (Pentateuch, historical books, poetic books, and prophetic books; so in essence the Old Testament is a history of a people (Hebrew Israelites); much like the American History books are the history of America. Not everything that happened through out the history of a people will be covered in any history book; only the things that are thought to be of importance. Take an American History book; how thick do you think the book would be if it was filled with everything that ever happened in American history up until today? And what would you care that on August 2, 1933 a woman named Mary Peachtree (made up name) gave birth to a baby at some hospital in never-never land?
You probably don't, it's irrelevant to what you need to know about American history. The bible is the same way; do you really need to know how many children Adam and Eve had; and which of their children procreated together; or do you just need to know what is relevant to the lesson?
Just some thoughts.
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SGT Anthony Bussing
the bible...a book written by man...I put zero faith in it...and the whole "free will" argument is so passe..
I am an educated man, I know what Omnipotent and omniscient mean...thank you for the vocabulary lesson, but I seem to recall learning that like in 5th or 6th grade, if not earlier...
and you never did answer the burning question...if we all descended from Eve, why does everyone have different mDNA?
you see...the Mitochondrial DNA is passed from the mother and only the mother...so, all siblings will have very very very smiler mDNA...especially since eve was "patient zero" in motherhood...but.....we dont...so, ergo, even given the obvious mutations over time, our mDNA is all different...we did not come from the same mother...
you want to believe what you want...believe in god, jesus, adam, eve...whatever...and thats great...I have no problem with it...but when you start telling me im stupid for not believing in YOUR god...then I take issue with that...Im far from a stupid man...and I am using my "free will" to not believe in this all powerful, all seeing god...you want to? no problem...my son doesnt believe. but my daughter does...she goes to church every weekend...does all her churchly duties...and I m proud of her...I never tell her that her faith is misguided...thats what she wants to believe..I choose to not believe...and it doesnt make me a better or worse man then you or any other bible thumper...
I am an educated man, I know what Omnipotent and omniscient mean...thank you for the vocabulary lesson, but I seem to recall learning that like in 5th or 6th grade, if not earlier...
and you never did answer the burning question...if we all descended from Eve, why does everyone have different mDNA?
you see...the Mitochondrial DNA is passed from the mother and only the mother...so, all siblings will have very very very smiler mDNA...especially since eve was "patient zero" in motherhood...but.....we dont...so, ergo, even given the obvious mutations over time, our mDNA is all different...we did not come from the same mother...
you want to believe what you want...believe in god, jesus, adam, eve...whatever...and thats great...I have no problem with it...but when you start telling me im stupid for not believing in YOUR god...then I take issue with that...Im far from a stupid man...and I am using my "free will" to not believe in this all powerful, all seeing god...you want to? no problem...my son doesnt believe. but my daughter does...she goes to church every weekend...does all her churchly duties...and I m proud of her...I never tell her that her faith is misguided...thats what she wants to believe..I choose to not believe...and it doesnt make me a better or worse man then you or any other bible thumper...
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Many Xtians are a bunch of dirty hypocrites, that's why. The fact you said that it saddens you that people like myself lack faith is enough to dislike you; I do not need any pity from you. Concepts like afterlife are imaginary; ways for people to feel their lives have any meaning.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
You have a great deal of anger. That too saddens me.
You do realize that it's not an insult to call Christians "Xtians," right?
You do realize that it's not an insult to call Christians "Xtians," right?
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CPT Pedro Meza
1LT Nick Kidwell - chances are that PO2 Jo Wi has been on the receiving end of Religious Freedom.I have seen more Jesus teaching behavior from non-Christians, including Atheist then from those that claim to be Christian.
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Well, first I'll say I rarely have this problem... most Christians are pretty okay and don't try to act superior or push their beliefs on me. But when it *does* happen, it is really annoying and disrespectful.
I'm not atheist, I'm Jewish, and every once in awhile I get "witnessed" to or even told flat-out I'm "wrong" or a "Christ killer" (I'm including civilian as well as military). It is very rare but displayed some serious cracks in professionalism or basic civility.
Interestingly, look at the assumptions here in this one particular thread: the assumption that this is between "Christians" and "Atheists". There's no one else out there with a viewpoint; only the Christian one? But then... I've never had a Buddhist or Ba'hai, Hindu, Pagan, Muslim, etc get in my face about religion, either, so...
So while the majority of Christians I've met are perfectly nice folks, some *are* arrogant, pushy, and demand all the respect while giving none back.
I'm not atheist, I'm Jewish, and every once in awhile I get "witnessed" to or even told flat-out I'm "wrong" or a "Christ killer" (I'm including civilian as well as military). It is very rare but displayed some serious cracks in professionalism or basic civility.
Interestingly, look at the assumptions here in this one particular thread: the assumption that this is between "Christians" and "Atheists". There's no one else out there with a viewpoint; only the Christian one? But then... I've never had a Buddhist or Ba'hai, Hindu, Pagan, Muslim, etc get in my face about religion, either, so...
So while the majority of Christians I've met are perfectly nice folks, some *are* arrogant, pushy, and demand all the respect while giving none back.
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The person attacking you is shallow and in need of support for his or her beliefs. They attempt to show their so called superiority with ignorance and can be hateful in the process. Uphold your values, don't get emotional, and forgive and plant the seed. Somewhere in life it may grow for the other person and you have grown spiritually.
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I will say this in my own case I have noticed that Christians are as antagonistic to each other as some are towards the Atheists and Agnostics. I have noticed that there are a few trolling these posts as a way of enforcing their beliefs. This is sad in that this country was founded on religious freedom. I will share the Gospel with those who are willing to listen and are interested, however, and this is where I have problems, when the person has become adversarial or no longer interested I will stop the conversation. Again, this is not the case with some. When the deaf ear is turned on the believer the believer will often turn up the volume to make sure they are heard. This is were the problem lies, NO RESPECT for the beliefs or lack of by those who profess a belief in God, Christ or whatever the individual chooses to believe in.
So for you out there who don't believe in a creator God, I say good for you. If it is working that is fine with me. DO Not try to change my beliefs to match your conscience.
Those who profess a belief in a creator God, again, good for you. If it works for you great. DO NOT try to convince me that your beliefs are better than mine because I will not mention which Christian denomination I belong to.
Your choice should be what you believe in respect what I believe and don't force your opinions on me and tell me I am wrong. When in doubt, leave me out.
Let the attacks begin! I am ready.
Just in case someone wants to take this out into left field somewhere I am going to tag some admins.
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP' PV2 (Join to see) MSgt (Join to see)
So for you out there who don't believe in a creator God, I say good for you. If it is working that is fine with me. DO Not try to change my beliefs to match your conscience.
Those who profess a belief in a creator God, again, good for you. If it works for you great. DO NOT try to convince me that your beliefs are better than mine because I will not mention which Christian denomination I belong to.
Your choice should be what you believe in respect what I believe and don't force your opinions on me and tell me I am wrong. When in doubt, leave me out.
Let the attacks begin! I am ready.
Just in case someone wants to take this out into left field somewhere I am going to tag some admins.
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP' PV2 (Join to see) MSgt (Join to see)
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SPC Charles Brown
I respect the beliefs of others, I refuse to force my chosen Christian denomination on you, I would hope you, no matter which side of this argument you are on, would show me the same respect.
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