Posted on Oct 22, 2016
Why do you think some soldiers don't reenlist? Could it be toxic leadership, lack of potential, or lack of motivation?
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Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 29
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I think there are a multitude of reasons: not what they expected, found another direction in life, met a mate, family, better job, better pay, doesn't want to conform and the list goes on. These and along with the ones in the title. It is like when I was on the trail, I'd ask Privates why they enlisted - there were multitudes of reasons.
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For most, enlistment was the first scary adventure; a chance to get away from home and become an adult. Some want to get promoted and stay; some don't, and leave in lieu of a bar to re-enlist. Which is good, because the military services operate via the labor of E4s and below. New E1s have to be recruited, because most E4s have too much ambition to stay E4s after 24 months. Even if they wanted to stay, for the most part, they can't.
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"Toxic Leadership"? Give me an example of that as I am just not understanding what it means. Old guy here, new term for me. In my time people did not enlist again because they did not like how the Army operated OR they wanted to get out for college. However, one of my best friends hated the Army but enlisted again and again and again. He went 18D when I ETS'd. Retired in 2005 as a MSG.
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SPC Alexander Brandt
Leadership that damages the effectiveness of whatever it's supposed to be in charge of. A malicious or negligent NCO, let's say.
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The military is just not for everyone. In some cases the goals set for the military service have been reached, e.g college money, acquire a skill, etc. In others an opportunity open up in the civilian sector.
Back on my day they no longer had to fear the draft after serving.
Back on my day they no longer had to fear the draft after serving.
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It would be nice if they had data from everyone who did not reenlist or ship over. Each person has their own story, but they could probably isolate the main causes & see if anything could be done. Root causes like you suggest are certainly reasons. When I got out no one cared one way or the other. Once finding out I was not going to reup, I was pretty well ignored by everyone. I always laugh at the old term 'reenlistment NCO' who did nothing but inquire if a person intended to reenlist, and if not forgot about you.
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I can only speak for myself.
A lot of people pegged me to become that career Marine. Turned out that first, the Prior Service recruiters didn't do a great job (Of course they tell you if you stay in, they'll promote you to E5---not really much of an "offer" if you already have the cutting score/promotio points based on your records alone), and then I find out my records are all screwed up. The Grunt vs POG debacle isn't simmered down any when the Grunts are out there pushing enemy lines backward, yet we can't get Admin to push a pencil or keyboard forward. I distinctly remember having my own meltdown about it at the time...and I will say looking back, I probably took it a little too personally and went a little too far...by telling the Gunny who ran a "3 weeks behind" admin unit...that since he wore more stripes than awards, one would think he would've been proficient in his 19 year Admin MOS by now...clearly he hadn't done much else.
They actually told me I had to return a full week AFTER my Discharge Date just to pick up my IRR ID Card. On my time...they didn't even comp me for hotel/fuel to hang around one coast for a week while I'm trying to get to the other coast and get on with my life. When I returned, they asked me again (this is 7 days after my Discharge now) why I was getting out. I said Well....A) there are some who cling to the career only because they don't know what else they would do with themselves---like that Gunny over there---and I do distinctly remember one of the first times in Boot Camp I ever heard a DI say "This ain't the friggin Boy Scouts" I thought...yeah that's true, and some of these people aren't even that good...apparently.
In the short answer, Id have to go with Toxic Leadership.
A lot of people pegged me to become that career Marine. Turned out that first, the Prior Service recruiters didn't do a great job (Of course they tell you if you stay in, they'll promote you to E5---not really much of an "offer" if you already have the cutting score/promotio points based on your records alone), and then I find out my records are all screwed up. The Grunt vs POG debacle isn't simmered down any when the Grunts are out there pushing enemy lines backward, yet we can't get Admin to push a pencil or keyboard forward. I distinctly remember having my own meltdown about it at the time...and I will say looking back, I probably took it a little too personally and went a little too far...by telling the Gunny who ran a "3 weeks behind" admin unit...that since he wore more stripes than awards, one would think he would've been proficient in his 19 year Admin MOS by now...clearly he hadn't done much else.
They actually told me I had to return a full week AFTER my Discharge Date just to pick up my IRR ID Card. On my time...they didn't even comp me for hotel/fuel to hang around one coast for a week while I'm trying to get to the other coast and get on with my life. When I returned, they asked me again (this is 7 days after my Discharge now) why I was getting out. I said Well....A) there are some who cling to the career only because they don't know what else they would do with themselves---like that Gunny over there---and I do distinctly remember one of the first times in Boot Camp I ever heard a DI say "This ain't the friggin Boy Scouts" I thought...yeah that's true, and some of these people aren't even that good...apparently.
In the short answer, Id have to go with Toxic Leadership.
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
SPC Erich Guenther - Except some of the Infantry, and some of the every other Combat Arms jobs are filled by people with very high ASVAB scores who simply believed in what they do. Grunts havent necessairily "dumb as a box of rocks" since the Vietnam Draft when numbers were more important than standards.
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SPC Erich Guenther
Cpl Christopher Bishop - Yes, I know but do the support units with their limited interaction all know that? I've run into the stereotype even in these days on the Internet. So I know the stereotype is still out there. My point in bringing it up is there are stereotypes on both sides of the divide. There were enlisted and NCO's in my Active Army unit with Masters Degrees, one was even in a PhD program when he enlisted. We had a fairly high quality bunch in the 1980's.
When I was stationed with 2nd Armored Division (FWD) in Germany it was a small BDE sized Kaserne and you could see most of the Barracks / Offices from my Barracks. A lot of times we were released at 5:30 p.m. and some of the support units were lights on working until 7-9:00 p.m. As a 0311 I am sure you got comped quite a few 3-4 day weekends on Active Duty for hard work or particularly difficult FTX's while in garrison. A lot of the support units do not get that as often or they didn't when I was in.
I know it is extremely irritating though after spending a month in the rain and slogging through mud to come across another unit where they are in pressed clean uniforms in heated tents and they are making loose comments about my muddy appearance. It's happened to me when I was in and you still feel like decking them in peacetime. Just the way it is.
I'll tell you one thing I was spared in my tour that you had to put up with in yours. "I'm just like Infantry". Never had to deal with that in my peacetime tour. Folks are only doing that in wartime (as well as posing) for the empathy they get. When I was in uniform nobody in Support would say that they would all say "I'm happy I'm not Infantry". Now when I read about that on the internet I chuckle a little. I even ran into that in peacetime a little. I got to the 101st Airborne Division right after the Airplane Crash in Gander, Newfoundland. I think it was a Boeing 707 that went down at Christmas.....280 dead I think. Anyways, it was just about everyone in the 20,000 person Infantry division knew or knew someone that knew one of the 280 people killed. Highly unlikely but again....folks want the empathy.
When I was stationed with 2nd Armored Division (FWD) in Germany it was a small BDE sized Kaserne and you could see most of the Barracks / Offices from my Barracks. A lot of times we were released at 5:30 p.m. and some of the support units were lights on working until 7-9:00 p.m. As a 0311 I am sure you got comped quite a few 3-4 day weekends on Active Duty for hard work or particularly difficult FTX's while in garrison. A lot of the support units do not get that as often or they didn't when I was in.
I know it is extremely irritating though after spending a month in the rain and slogging through mud to come across another unit where they are in pressed clean uniforms in heated tents and they are making loose comments about my muddy appearance. It's happened to me when I was in and you still feel like decking them in peacetime. Just the way it is.
I'll tell you one thing I was spared in my tour that you had to put up with in yours. "I'm just like Infantry". Never had to deal with that in my peacetime tour. Folks are only doing that in wartime (as well as posing) for the empathy they get. When I was in uniform nobody in Support would say that they would all say "I'm happy I'm not Infantry". Now when I read about that on the internet I chuckle a little. I even ran into that in peacetime a little. I got to the 101st Airborne Division right after the Airplane Crash in Gander, Newfoundland. I think it was a Boeing 707 that went down at Christmas.....280 dead I think. Anyways, it was just about everyone in the 20,000 person Infantry division knew or knew someone that knew one of the 280 people killed. Highly unlikely but again....folks want the empathy.
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
SPC Erich Guenther - Perhaps that is the difference. Wanting empathy---at the first step---and actually making effort to solicit said empathy...which gets me thinking that "Pain is temporary, Pride is permanent" must have been written by the Grunts.
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CH (COL) (Join to see)
Cpl Christopher Bishop - I started infantry. My GT score was 136. I had a soldier in my platoon who's score was 158.
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I'll take on the toxic leadership...
I was at command that had such a horrible reenlistment rate that the Navy IG paid us a visit. E-6 and below were broken up into 3 groups of 100 (included in the groups were some spouses because not all of the visit concentrated on reenlistment rates). One of the questions asked was imagine this is your first and only duty station, how many of you would reenlist. One person raised his hand and there were several of us in the room that had been to more than one duty station. No one said it at the time, but we all knew the reason since we talked about it later. The main reason was because of toxic leadership. Oh... and I did ask around to others in the other groups and they said no one raised their hand. Says something, no? But I digress a bit....
Toxic leadership can occur for different reasons. As far as I'm concerned, the number one reason has to be when leadership is more interested in itself and furthering its career and less with its subordinates and their development; even just the sense of not caring can cause a toxic environment, even if it isn't true.
I have to agree with others that say that some people enlist only to find out enlisting wasn't what they thought it would be. I ran into a young lady in my last command like that. She said she came to the command (her first) ready to hit the deck running and full of motivation. She said now her only motivation was to get out and on to other things.
I was at command that had such a horrible reenlistment rate that the Navy IG paid us a visit. E-6 and below were broken up into 3 groups of 100 (included in the groups were some spouses because not all of the visit concentrated on reenlistment rates). One of the questions asked was imagine this is your first and only duty station, how many of you would reenlist. One person raised his hand and there were several of us in the room that had been to more than one duty station. No one said it at the time, but we all knew the reason since we talked about it later. The main reason was because of toxic leadership. Oh... and I did ask around to others in the other groups and they said no one raised their hand. Says something, no? But I digress a bit....
Toxic leadership can occur for different reasons. As far as I'm concerned, the number one reason has to be when leadership is more interested in itself and furthering its career and less with its subordinates and their development; even just the sense of not caring can cause a toxic environment, even if it isn't true.
I have to agree with others that say that some people enlist only to find out enlisting wasn't what they thought it would be. I ran into a young lady in my last command like that. She said she came to the command (her first) ready to hit the deck running and full of motivation. She said now her only motivation was to get out and on to other things.
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SPC Erich Guenther
So in your description, you never mentioned if you took the issue to leadership to complain in a closed door session. Did you ever do that? In my life experience, even the biggest bastard you can usually reason with and come to some type of an agreement . So thats why I do not understand the term in part. Toxic Leadership to me would be leadership without an OPEN DOOR POLICY or that if it had one it would ignore it and any suggestions brought to it. However I thought the whole OPEN DOOR POLICY thing was a DoD mandate across all the service branches since at least the 1980's.
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I tell every soldier thats asks me this do whats best for you. Your the only one that knows that and make an informed decision. Most first term SMs are making a decision for their future. Give them the information and resources and let them make the decision as what they percieve as in there best intrest. Sometimes thats staying in and sometimes its getting out. There is bad leadership at all levels and in every profession the Army is no different. The military could make somethings easier like coming back in at a later time and or transfering amount the reserves or national guard back to active and vice versa. I've never understood the logic of paper work hurdles that SM face that are fully qualified and want to come back in and or transfer that make it next to impossibile to move as ones life circumstances and goals change. The military gives alot of lip service to fixing this but the sheer burcracy is still astounding for a 21st century organization.
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The people who stay in are the ones who lack potential and they bring other people down as they rank up. I'd say another thing would be nco,s or co,s using their rank to obtain pleasure or profit. I'm not saying all leaders are bad becouse they are not. On another note favoritism is at an all time high I see it every day, if I was to do or say things other people do I would be crucified so that would be my explanation on why I'm not staying in if rather work at a factory again.
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It's just the amount of bs I have to put up with is not worth it anymore. Just being in the national guard I've put up with bs. Losing out of job opportunities and promotions at work because of my service obligations. Being belittled and treated like a child because some sergeant wants to stroke their ego despite being 29(I joined at 24). Not being able to get passed e4 because my mos (25b) is over strength and there's only 2 or 3 e5 positions in the state. Being on deployment with toxic leadership which makes the whole experience miserable despite being in Europe which is pretty much a 9 month AT. After getting some IT certifications a few months ago I've gotten job opportunities for when i return back to the usa that would pay way more than im making as an e4. Being worked way harder than my peers, even performing their job function at times. Even if i stayed in the arng for 20 years i would have to wait 16 yrs after that to draw the few hundred bucks a month of retirement. Injuring my shoulder and the doctors saying its not hurt despite getting a mri showing that i have a torn labrum. Overall its just not worth it. I got my job experience, my resume building and one deployment. Its time for me to walk
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