Posted on Aug 1, 2016
Why do you think women are not going to Combat Arms MOS's?
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So now the SMA is asking for more women to step up and join combat arms. In this article the Army opened up 220,000 jobs for women. These must have been all the Combat Arms jobs in the Army but so far they have about 100 volunteers. It isn't looking too good for diversity. So much for fighting to open the flood gates. I think a garden hose would have sufficed.
I myself could think of a few reasons that those women in the military see and understand that these new soldiers coming into combat arms really don't. These new soldier don't really know or understand what they are getting into but then who really does. If you were to think about just the infantry you really don't need to look further than Ranger School and it's relation to promotion. Look at just about all of the leadership in the Infantry and you will see they are Tabbed. I can't really recall seeing any CSMs without one. So when they compete up against these guys for an SFC slot that are tabbed who do you think that is going to selected for promotion and good assignments?
In addition, I have seen what infantry go through in the field. Ask any OIF I vet about taking a shower. It was a luxury. Ask a Dog Faced soldier from the 3rd ID. We lived in our tracks in the dessert only to charge into Iraq to not take a shower for weeks. Do you think any of this could be affecting their decision?
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/08/01/sma-army-needs-female-soldiers-step-up-combat-jobs/87931290/
I myself could think of a few reasons that those women in the military see and understand that these new soldiers coming into combat arms really don't. These new soldier don't really know or understand what they are getting into but then who really does. If you were to think about just the infantry you really don't need to look further than Ranger School and it's relation to promotion. Look at just about all of the leadership in the Infantry and you will see they are Tabbed. I can't really recall seeing any CSMs without one. So when they compete up against these guys for an SFC slot that are tabbed who do you think that is going to selected for promotion and good assignments?
In addition, I have seen what infantry go through in the field. Ask any OIF I vet about taking a shower. It was a luxury. Ask a Dog Faced soldier from the 3rd ID. We lived in our tracks in the dessert only to charge into Iraq to not take a shower for weeks. Do you think any of this could be affecting their decision?
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/08/01/sma-army-needs-female-soldiers-step-up-combat-jobs/87931290/
Combat Arms
Women in the Military
Soldiers
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 25
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Just because it's an open bar doesn't mean everyone wants to drink beer.
I'm guessing there are a lot of practical women out there who understand combat arms is not a back yard play ground. We have lots of women in the Services and I have served with and under the command of some really good women, but I really never looked at them as women, I looked at them as soldiers doing their jobs. Also got to keep in mind there are a lot of guys who'd never go combat arms.
I'm guessing there are a lot of practical women out there who understand combat arms is not a back yard play ground. We have lots of women in the Services and I have served with and under the command of some really good women, but I really never looked at them as women, I looked at them as soldiers doing their jobs. Also got to keep in mind there are a lot of guys who'd never go combat arms.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
LTC (Join to see) - Well they did, but this NCOIC thought he was going to be PC and have a female gunner, which would have been ok if she'd had time to qualify, fire and know the weapon system. Problem was I knew the soldier, knew she had fired one, but never qualified. I also knew we had no time for range. He'd taken the SAW away from a qualified 11B. Was a no go from the beginning.
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LTC (Join to see)
SGM Mikel Dawson - thanks for the clarification. That's what hit me when I first read it, that the NCO would be just as hosed up had he selected a male soldier who had never qualified with the weapon either. As for being "politically correct" I wonder why the NCO would feel that way. In 2003, Bush was president, the country had war fever, and there was no big political push to move women into combat arms at that time. Sounds like the NCO was just fucked up on his own.
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LTC (Join to see)
SGM Mikel Dawson - SGM Mikel Dawson - thanks for the clarification. That's what hit me when I first read it, that the NCO would be just as hosed up had he selected a male soldier who had never qualified with the weapon either. As for being "politically correct" I wonder why the NCO would feel that way. In 2003, Bush was president, the country had war fever, and there was no big political push to move women into combat arms at that time. Sounds like the NCO was just fucked up on his own.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
LTC (Join to see) - There was a beginning of getting women behind the gun, if you know what I mean. We had some units who had Base Defense Liaison teams. These teams were made of 11B, 12B, 31B. One of the Cdrs was a little reluctant to put a female in the 31B position, but did. As we weren't a Combat unit, but a CS unit we had a mix of Combat Arms MOSs and Support MOSs. Thus came the getting a female behind a SAW.
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CPT Russell Pitre Because the wrong people were advocating for the opening up of combat MOS's. The numbers show it here if only 100 or so have volunteer. To me, it was all a political issue with people wanting to make their mark on a system that they are not directly affected by. Further, while I have absolutely no issue with women performing combat arms jobs, if they can meet the standards (which a lot of men fail to do), I do think this was "the needs of the few or one outweighing the needs of the many / whole." It should always be the other way around.
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So now the SMA is wanting to get more females in Combat Arms positions. I'm betting higher forces are steering him. Soon we will have studies that conclude that females deem the Infantry Schooling systems too tough. Then the further lowering of Standards will be in full swing. Of course, the spiral down the porcelain will have all of the current buzzwords like "Fairness" & "Inclusive". Those that argue against the lowering of Standards will be labeled as "Misogynous" and "Afraid of Change".
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Sgt Jamie Grippin
They made changes in the 80's so women could fly. Water survival standards were lowered because it suddenly became harder to drown so there was no reason for Sailors and Marines to to have to tread water for so long anymore.
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LTC (Join to see)
MSG Pat Colby - all of your accusations, as I stated at the start, have been addressed and rebutted long ago. Did you hear the one about how the CG walked the women's graded patrol and changed an RI's grade from pass to fail? Never happened. Neither the CG nor CSM walked any graded patrol of any female student. Your recycle claim--false.
Here's an open letter from the RTB S3 and later XO addressing the rumors. But what he says upfront is correct. No matter what evidence they presented, people like you will never believe it
I'll stand with the integrity of all the Ranger NCOs and Officers who have stated there was no lowering of standards than some supossed anonymous RI claim.
http://www.stripes.com/news/army/ranger-school-official-combats-rumors-about-how-women-passed-training-1.363823
Here's an open letter from the RTB S3 and later XO addressing the rumors. But what he says upfront is correct. No matter what evidence they presented, people like you will never believe it
I'll stand with the integrity of all the Ranger NCOs and Officers who have stated there was no lowering of standards than some supossed anonymous RI claim.
http://www.stripes.com/news/army/ranger-school-official-combats-rumors-about-how-women-passed-training-1.363823
Ranger School official combats rumors about how women passed training
Critics have ripped the Army's Ranger School about its willingness to include female students and that two women will graduate from the school Friday. Frustrated with the sniping, the No. 2 official in the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade overseeing Ranger School took to Facebook to respond.
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MSG Pat Colby
LTC (Join to see) - Did you hear the one about "No undue Command Influence", Sir? Yeah, it was validated by 2 LTC's, 3 EO Reps that worked around the clock and a half a gaggle of PAO that followed every movement and even camped right next to every Patrol Base. Hell, even the CG himself was on-site (with a different patrol) making sure that it was just another day in Ranger School because CG's walk patrols all the time..
Nothing to see here. Happens every class.
COLBY. OUT.
Nothing to see here. Happens every class.
COLBY. OUT.
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The science of the matter, which completely ignores political correctness, is that only statistically-outlying women will be able to meet the standards as they are. Most women are rational and know this, and probably evaluate where they are on that bell curve, and decide that it's not for them. I don't think this should surprise anyone. It's not misogyny. It's science.
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CPT Russell Pitre
If you were to say that you might get an EO complaint in today's army. But I agree.
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SN Greg Wright
CPT Russell Pitre - If that's so, that saddens me. Reality has lost it's place to fantasy (aka PC). There simply is no arguing the factual science of the matter, no matter your political party, gender, agenda, or anything else. It all falls moot in the face of gravity.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Well sadly we have LT Karen Hultgren at the bottom of the ocean to prove that once government gets it into its head that it wants something, not even dead servicemembers stand in their way. I'm sure they'll kill off a few female soldiers to make their point.
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SN Greg Wright
This is why standards should not be lowered in order to get anybody into SF's. Do you know Lt....
This is NOT a thread to demonstrate why women shouldn't be in combat. It's a thread to demonstrate why standards shouldn't be lowered to get them (or anyone) there. Please be civil. In the early 90's, the White house and Congress were fairly desperate to rid themselves of the stink of Tail Hook, and so instigated a program to allow women to become combat pilots in the Navy. Lt. Hultgreen was the first of these. During her training, she...
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I don't know, why are there so few women working in coal mines? Or as garbage collectors? Or on commercial fishing boats? Or lumberjacking? To paraphrase the late, great, Nobel laureate (when that actually meant something) Dr. Milton Friedman, the problem with the free market is that it allows women to make the choices they want, rather than what the feminists and social engineers think that they ought to want.
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LTC (Join to see)
But under the free market model, all women would have the actual option to try any career field, and then be judged by whether they were successful or not. So opening up the careers fields was exactly the thing needed. Having certain fields arbitrarily closed to women is against free market principles.
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1LT Aaron Barr
LTC (Join to see) - I wouldn't call closing combat branches to females an arbitrary policy.
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Private Berghdal is an 11B. I'll put up 75% of the women I served with against him. The other 25% would lose but he'd be in some serious pain.
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LTC Stephen Conway
Put PFC Manning (who is still a man) but he would still lose to 95% of the women LOL.
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MSG (Join to see)
LTC Stephen Conway - He was MI right? He wouldn't stand a chance against the females I know. Then again maybe the prison time has made him hard.
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LTC Stephen Conway
MSG (Join to see) - Im really upset at that fagot because his information given out to rapist assange in Wikileaks meant that thousands were killed or had to flee their homes after the taliban or ISIL read over the information and found the grid for every single report in the CIDNE database for any information on an area or a suspected terrorist. I hope he stays a gilry- man forever. Life in prison for him. If he thinks that he must, he must increase his bust! for a boob job for that traitor weirdo...no, let him suffer. His cruel and unusual punishment that the ACLU will try to portray and embellish will not even come close to the thousands he killed! Let the traitor fagot rot in Leavenworth and keep him alive too. Too bad we could not do it clockwork orange style.
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CPT Russell Pitre Does anyone count the number of female police officers they/we encounter? Police employment has been available to females for years!
A few do, and are successful. The current, elected Sheriff of Orange County, CA is a female who earlier had a successful career w/ the Los Angeles County, CA Sheriff's Department!
Most women choose to not enter into such hazardous, dangerous employment! Has the current emphasis on females in the military skewed their reasoning processes?
A few do, and are successful. The current, elected Sheriff of Orange County, CA is a female who earlier had a successful career w/ the Los Angeles County, CA Sheriff's Department!
Most women choose to not enter into such hazardous, dangerous employment! Has the current emphasis on females in the military skewed their reasoning processes?
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Some people are cut out for combat jobs, others are not. It takes a smart man/woman to acknowledge which side they belong to. At the end of the day we need everyone in every position at the right time and for the right reasons, and god bless any woman willing to do their duty. I think many women recognize the strain men have endured for their country over the years fulfilling these roles, and have a deep respect for it.
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TSgt (Join to see)
CPT Russell Pitre - A little of both. I'm simply stating that most women and men recognize the strain of combat roles for what they are, and weed themselves out accordingly. I think that's why we have only 100 volunteers, it's a very specific mindset you must belong to to succeed there.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
TSgt (Join to see) The same level of respect that s/b accorded military spouses!
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Capt Tom Brown
SFC (Join to see) - Very well said and gives some insights into why there are fewer women volunteering than hoped for. You speak with cred of someone who has been there and done that.
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I haven't even begun to read the comments but I just wanted to say it's because someone argued for us to have this choice but we didn't want it.
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